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Nether wrote:***snip***
......Now for Archie, i see him as many already mentioned, he is sitting 'dormant' for lack of a better term as he is not in the process of building a military force, but Always always preparing for it. So he would have many factories created and at the ready to pump out forces en-masse. He could have a good many of the pre rifts installations hidden and just waiting to come online not to mention stockpiles upon stockpiles of resources not to mention him thru the 300 year dark age would be also stockpiling for insane amounts of fast production.
.......
So to me, alot of Archie's production facilities would have been created after the apocalypse and where other nations built militaries, ARchie went purely for the mass increase of infrastructure which would rival anything in NA by alot. (kind of like in WW2, the US could out produces prolly all the other allies combined)

Just adding my 2c

Cyber-Knight wrote:In another thread they were talking about how ARCHIE's capable of churning out 400,000 robots per month if he really wanted to. So in six months that's 2.4 million robots in addition to what he already has. That'd be more than enough to go head-to-head with the Coalition, and that's in the opening days of the war. As it drags on the Coalition's losing soldiers which aren't so easy to replace while ARCHIE-3 is still pumping out 400,000 new soldiers every month.

jaymz wrote:Pretty sure that can be taken care of since the OP did say Archie had been building up his forces for 6 months. Archie building up forces for 6 months night and day 7 days a week non-stop. Archie's only real failing is a lack of airbourne bots.

jaymz wrote:The big difference here is he has never been stated as actively building up for war. In fact I have seen it written than several factories aren't even use at the moment. That would indicate, at least to me, that he could have SIGNIFICANTLY greater numbers if he were to put his mind to it.

To all those of you who keep trumpeting about ARCHIE's (supposed) potential production capabilities:

Why is it that you speak incessantly about what ARCHIE might be able to do in terms of ramping up production....but leave the Coalition in this particular scenario stranded in a sort of intellectual temporal stasis whereby they wouldn't ramp up their production as well??

My question is almost rhetorical (okay, maybe it IS rhetorical), and my answer to my own question is that those of you who are counting on ARCHIE to ramp up production while making the Coalition stand still, are handicapping the Coalition in order to achieve a certain outcome in the debate.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Cyber-Knight wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Cyber-Knight wrote:
Agreed. Moreover, there's nothing about the Nazi's which CS citizens would likely find shocking, since Prosek went and based his entire regime around the Nazi's. If anything, it'd all seem very familiar to the average Coalition citizen. Come to think of it, do Jews even exist on Rifts Earth? Obviously there're people still alive with Jewish ancestry, but as a culture and a religion, does Judaism still exist? Are there people who still consider themselves to be Jews? Do Coalition citizens have any idea what they are? There're people alive today who think that Jews have horns. How hard would it be to convince the ignorant masses of the Coalition States that "Hey, they weren't humans, they were some other creatures?" After all, you have people who think that NEMA was a supernatural race of Demigods called the Neemans, and they existed after the Coming of the Rifts. How hard would it be to mythologize a group of people which effectively ceased to exist before the Coming of the Rifts? Nevermind the fact that they worship what the Coalition could paint as an alien intelligence, so even if they're considered human, the Coalition could paint them as being people no different than the denizes of Tolkeen, worshipping their alien, supernatural power and traitors to Humanity.

So yeah, I can't see your average Coalition citizen seeing a History Channel special on Nazi Germany compared to the Prosek regime and giving a hoot.

never underestimate the power of dead bodies, especially dead bodies of children.

Never underestimate the power of REAL LIVE MONSTERS, DEMONS, DEVILS, ALIENS, DBEES, DINOSAURS and 200 years of being preyed on by said creatures, to sway public opinion.

Particularly if those dead bodies are either of A) People which the Coalition successfully convinces its citizenry of being akin to D-Bee's, or B) People which the Coalition successfully convinces its citizenry of worshipping alien supernatural powers, and thus as having been in league with enemies of humanity and deserving of their fates. The Coalition does that sort of thing all the time and they get the stamp of approval from Average Joe Coalition. Seeing the results of what they support might shock them, but only at first, and at the end of the day things'll go right back to normal.

That might the CS military, but somehow CS civilians see who is being done in their name , I have a feeling that might be a different story, some of Karl Prosek opponents are within CS civilian government.

Again, those things being done, are being done to monsters. The very monsters the CS Citizen is HAPPY that the military keeps them safe from. You know the CS puts out video of some sweet looking little elf girl suddenly ripping the head off a CS troop and reverting to it's dragon form, to help impress even the sweet looking little debees are dangerous. Remember that Star Trek Parody, Galaxy quest? Remember the little blue guys? The one with the limp, that turned into swarming parainah people with teeth trying to kill them? THAT is the sort of thing the CS shows it's people. They probably have documentaries showing those sorts over and over and over, to -re-enforce- the threat of Dbees, aliens and supernatural. As if the REAL LIFE monsters wern't bad enough and scary enough on their own, the CS no doubt sensationalizes them. With 1 in 10 of your populace in the military, they've been out there, and have fought the magical and supernatural. You don't have to 'make up' demons and dragons and dangerous D-bees when they've battled them tooth and nail themselves... or their husband.. or wife... or uncle.. or brother, or sister has.

The CS Propaganda works, not because they're so sneaky, but instead, in Rifts, the monsters and demons annd dragons and undead, and magical constructs and aliens are very very real, and very scary and very dangerous, in reality. It takes very little to point that out if it's true.

Does that mean they all are? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I know that. YOU know that, but we're sitting back reading books on it. We're not seeing people getting their heads pulled off and eyes sucked out by a Brodkil laughing at the camera. Much less seeing our sister having that happen, or the guy from down the street.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Again, those things being done, are being done to monsters. The very monsters the CS Citizen is HAPPY that the military keeps them safe from. You know the CS puts out video of some sweet looking little elf girl suddenly ripping the head off a CS troop and reverting to it's dragon form, to help impress even the sweet looking little debees are dangerous. Remember that Star Trek Parody, Galaxy quest? Remember the little blue guys? The one with the limp, that turned into swarming parainah people with teeth trying to kill them? THAT is the sort of thing the CS shows it's people. They probably have documentaries showing those sorts over and over and over, to -re-enforce- the threat of Dbees, aliens and supernatural. As if the REAL LIFE monsters wern't bad enough and scary enough on their own, the CS no doubt sensationalizes them. With 1 in 10 of your populace in the military, they've been out there, and have fought the magical and supernatural. You don't have to 'make up' demons and dragons and dangerous D-bees when they've battled them tooth and nail themselves... or their husband.. or wife... or uncle.. or brother, or sister has.

The CS Propaganda works, not because they're so sneaky, but instead, in Rifts, the monsters and demons annd dragons and undead, and magical constructs and aliens are very very real, and very scary and very dangerous, in reality. It takes very little to point that out if it's true.

Does that mean they all are? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I know that. YOU know that, but we're sitting back reading books on it. We're not seeing people getting their heads pulled off and eyes sucked out by a Brodkil laughing at the camera. Much less seeing our sister having that happen, or the guy from down the street.

Yup and showing videos of heroic CS soldier acting unheroic and no better then the creatures they fight isn't going keep their support.

cornholioprime wrote:To all those of you who keep trumpeting about ARCHIE's (supposed) potential production capabilities:

Why is it that you speak incessantly about what ARCHIE might be able to do in terms of ramping up production....but leave the Coalition in this particular scenario stranded in a sort of intellectual temporal stasis whereby they wouldn't ramp up their production as well??

My question is almost rhetorical (okay, maybe it IS rhetorical), and my answer to my own question is that those of you who are counting on ARCHIE to ramp up production while making the Coalition stand still, are handicapping the Coalition in order to achieve a certain outcome in the debate.

Archie is hiding, it is likely that in order to do so better, he has kept his production to a minimum to avoid detection.
The CS is at a constant state of war, in able to do so effectively, they will be using a significant amount of their capabilities (as evidenced by Tolkeen, somehow they are managing to go far beyond their capabilities).
They aren't the same - we have reason to believe that Archie has far more room for improvement.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Again, those things being done, are being done to monsters. The very monsters the CS Citizen is HAPPY that the military keeps them safe from. You know the CS puts out video of some sweet looking little elf girl suddenly ripping the head off a CS troop and reverting to it's dragon form, to help impress even the sweet looking little debees are dangerous. Remember that Star Trek Parody, Galaxy quest? Remember the little blue guys? The one with the limp, that turned into swarming parainah people with teeth trying to kill them? THAT is the sort of thing the CS shows it's people. They probably have documentaries showing those sorts over and over and over, to -re-enforce- the threat of Dbees, aliens and supernatural. As if the REAL LIFE monsters wern't bad enough and scary enough on their own, the CS no doubt sensationalizes them. With 1 in 10 of your populace in the military, they've been out there, and have fought the magical and supernatural. You don't have to 'make up' demons and dragons and dangerous D-bees when they've battled them tooth and nail themselves... or their husband.. or wife... or uncle.. or brother, or sister has.

The CS Propaganda works, not because they're so sneaky, but instead, in Rifts, the monsters and demons annd dragons and undead, and magical constructs and aliens are very very real, and very scary and very dangerous, in reality. It takes very little to point that out if it's true.

Does that mean they all are? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I know that. YOU know that, but we're sitting back reading books on it. We're not seeing people getting their heads pulled off and eyes sucked out by a Brodkil laughing at the camera. Much less seeing our sister having that happen, or the guy from down the street.

That is all true of the CS's ancestors but the majority of the CS have been sitting happily in the walls of Chi Town without ever witnessing a hostile DBee.
As time goes on without incident, the propaganda machine gets more and more susceptible to questioning.

Giant2005 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Again, those things being done, are being done to monsters. The very monsters the CS Citizen is HAPPY that the military keeps them safe from. You know the CS puts out video of some sweet looking little elf girl suddenly ripping the head off a CS troop and reverting to it's dragon form, to help impress even the sweet looking little debees are dangerous. Remember that Star Trek Parody, Galaxy quest? Remember the little blue guys? The one with the limp, that turned into swarming parainah people with teeth trying to kill them? THAT is the sort of thing the CS shows it's people. They probably have documentaries showing those sorts over and over and over, to -re-enforce- the threat of Dbees, aliens and supernatural. As if the REAL LIFE monsters wern't bad enough and scary enough on their own, the CS no doubt sensationalizes them. With 1 in 10 of your populace in the military, they've been out there, and have fought the magical and supernatural. You don't have to 'make up' demons and dragons and dangerous D-bees when they've battled them tooth and nail themselves... or their husband.. or wife... or uncle.. or brother, or sister has.

The CS Propaganda works, not because they're so sneaky, but instead, in Rifts, the monsters and demons annd dragons and undead, and magical constructs and aliens are very very real, and very scary and very dangerous, in reality. It takes very little to point that out if it's true.

Does that mean they all are? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I know that. YOU know that, but we're sitting back reading books on it. We're not seeing people getting their heads pulled off and eyes sucked out by a Brodkil laughing at the camera. Much less seeing our sister having that happen, or the guy from down the street.

That is all true of the CS's ancestors but the majority of the CS have been sitting happily in the walls of Chi Town without ever witnessing a hostile DBee.
As time goes on without incident, the propaganda machine gets more and more susceptible to questioning.

Not really. The CS isn't just the super cities. They have cities that radiate out around them and remember it's a fully militerized state. 1 in 10 or more are IN the army. Of the other 9, many of them work for the military machine to keep them going. It's not like they never see or hear about them. You may have never seen a DBee your self "In the flesh" but someone on your street or hall has. The 1 in 10 military keeps those numbers up. You might not have interacted with one, but Marcy's husband got killed by one in the field. And your aunt caught some alien funk and her skin crawled off one night. And three doors down, Frank used to be a farmer. he said one day he saw a real life dragon come down and eat 15 cows, burped, shot him the finger and flew off"

Not only that but the CS is quick to show the populace what they fear. Again you don't have to 'spin' it if you really are at war with demonic armies (( like tolkeen)) Real live footage is bad enough.

That's the difference. Here on our earth someone might have to sensationalize the 'enemy' to make them seem bad. In Rifts earth the monsters are 'real' and just doing what they do is plenty bad.

Can you imagine the reaction if you saw a real live Sploog slave barge with it's slimy tenticle thing gathering slaves from some kid in the bushes on a smart phone? And instead of 'Neat movie" it was "REAL?" Now imagine that for 100s of years.

Giant2005 wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:To all those of you who keep trumpeting about ARCHIE's (supposed) potential production capabilities:

Why is it that you speak incessantly about what ARCHIE might be able to do in terms of ramping up production....but leave the Coalition in this particular scenario stranded in a sort of intellectual temporal stasis whereby they wouldn't ramp up their production as well??

My question is almost rhetorical (okay, maybe it IS rhetorical), and my answer to my own question is that those of you who are counting on ARCHIE to ramp up production while making the Coalition stand still, are handicapping the Coalition in order to achieve a certain outcome in the debate.

Archie is hiding, it is likely that in order to do so better, he has kept his production to a minimum to avoid detection.
The CS is at a constant state of war, in able to do so effectively, they will be using a significant amount of their capabilities (as evidenced by Tolkeen, somehow they are managing to go far beyond their capabilities).
They aren't the same - we have reason to believe that Archie has far more room for improvement.

The extent to which ARCHIE, or the Coalition, can increase their production capabilities is ultimately irrelevant -since we don't really have an official presentation of current or potential production capacity for either side.

The 'gripe' being made here is that some folks are essentially trying to handicap the Coalition by making ARCHIE do something smart (speeding up production) while making the Coalition do something that is comparatively stupid (just sitting back and letting ARCHIE do so without adapting in their own right as might be needed).

cornholioprime wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:To all those of you who keep trumpeting about ARCHIE's (supposed) potential production capabilities:

Why is it that you speak incessantly about what ARCHIE might be able to do in terms of ramping up production....but leave the Coalition in this particular scenario stranded in a sort of intellectual temporal stasis whereby they wouldn't ramp up their production as well??

My question is almost rhetorical (okay, maybe it IS rhetorical), and my answer to my own question is that those of you who are counting on ARCHIE to ramp up production while making the Coalition stand still, are handicapping the Coalition in order to achieve a certain outcome in the debate.

Archie is hiding, it is likely that in order to do so better, he has kept his production to a minimum to avoid detection.
The CS is at a constant state of war, in able to do so effectively, they will be using a significant amount of their capabilities (as evidenced by Tolkeen, somehow they are managing to go far beyond their capabilities).
They aren't the same - we have reason to believe that Archie has far more room for improvement.

The extent to which ARCHIE, or the Coalition, can increase their production capabilities is ultimately irrelevant -since we don't really have an official presentation of current or potential production capacity for either side.

The 'gripe' being made here is that some folks are essentially trying to handicap the Coalition by making ARCHIE do something smart (speeding up production) while making the Coalition do something that is comparatively stupid (just sitting back and letting ARCHIE do so without adapting in their own right as might be needed).

Except they aren't saying that, they point to the CS's production leading up to and during the Tolkeen war and rightly point out that there's no way that the CS was just coasting its production (and we know they acquired several tech areas to expand because they were maxing out) but had to be working around its max. Meanwhile we know that ARCHIE-3 is idling its production carefully producing limited numbers and stockpiling much of that once it is done and is capable of far more once it goes into its own war production mode.

The 'gripe' being made here is that some folks are essentially trying to handicap the Coalition by making ARCHIE do something smart (speeding up production) while making the Coalition do something that is comparatively stupid (just sitting back and letting ARCHIE do so without adapting in their own right as might be needed).

Nobody's handicapping anything. It's just a simple fact that it's easier to produce a robot soldier, which ARCHIE depends entirely on, than a human soldier, which forms the main strength of the Coalition military. If ARCHIE loses 200,000 soldiers then he can supposedly replace them in two weeks with new soldiers which are as good as the ones he lost, if not better (as he might have reprogrammed them to account for whatever conditions resulted in the loss of their predecessors). If the Coalition loses 200,000 soldiers then they have to replace them with new recruits from the civilian populace, which'll take several months of basic training, and which likely won't be as good as the veterans which the Coalition just lost in battle. The more the Coalition's losses mount, the more of a burden the war effort will be on the civilian populace supporting it. There may come a point when new recruits for the Coalition army will begin to dry up while ARCHIE would likely still be able to churn out his 400,000 soldiers every month, given that it takes about 15 years for a newborn child to be old enough to fight and receive training, and you can't completely divest your civilian populace of adults, because then otherwise where's the economy to support your war effort?

So assuming what those people say is true about ARCHIE's production capabilities (And I'm not saying they are, as I haven't seen the source which they're supposedly working off of), ARCHIE has the clear advantage when it comes to numbers. He can quickly produce an army equal in size to the Coalition and, in a prolonged war, increase its size much more quickly than the Coalition can increase its forces. And ARCHIE's army can continue to increase at a steady pace, a pace which is limited only by his access to the raw materials necessary to make his robots, while the Coalition's ability to increase the size of its forces will eventually plateau before it begins dropping due to the limits of relying on an army based on flesh and blood soldiers.

Can anyone point me to the "400,000 bots/month" reference?

Cyber-Knight wrote:

The 'gripe' being made here is that some folks are essentially trying to handicap the Coalition by making ARCHIE do something smart (speeding up production) while making the Coalition do something that is comparatively stupid (just sitting back and letting ARCHIE do so without adapting in their own right as might be needed).

Nobody's handicapping anything. It's just a simple fact that it's easier to produce a robot soldier, which ARCHIE depends entirely on, than a human soldier, which forms the main strength of the Coalition military.

So now the Coalition all of a sudden doesn't have Skelebots anymore?

If ARCHIE loses 200,000 soldiers then he can supposedly replace them in two weeks with new soldiers which are as good as the ones he lost, if not better (as he might have reprogrammed them to account for whatever conditions resulted in the loss of their predecessors).

And how is ARCHIE going to do this in a vacuum -which is to say, how is he going to do this, and get all those units out to the field, without being discovered?

Moreover, what stops the Coalition from doing the exact same thing?

The scenario doesn't start off with the Coalition "waiting" until ARCHIE gets his 'bot army up to a number that he deems acceptable; it starts off with a Coalition force that VASTLY outnumbers and outguns ARCHIE's forces in every way, engaging in a head-to-head confrontation.

Part of such a battle involves the two sides degrading each other's lines of supply and support, and who do you think wins that battle of attrition?

If the Coalition loses 200,000 soldiers then they have to replace them with new recruits from the civilian populace, which'll take several months of basic training, and which likely won't be as good as the veterans which the Coalition just lost in battle.

Again, I ask you about the Coalition Skelebots which on their own outnumber ARCHIE's bots by a factor of 8-to-1?

The more the Coalition's losses mount, the more of a burden the war effort will be on the civilian populace supporting it. There may come a point when new recruits for the Coalition army will begin to dry up while ARCHIE would likely still be able to churn out his 400,000 soldiers every month, given that it takes about 15 years for a newborn child to be old enough to fight and receive training, and you can't completely divest your civilian populace of adults, because then otherwise where's the economy to support your war effort?

Mack isn't the only one who wants to know where this mystical, magical number of 400,000 Skells a month is coming from; sounds more like a brand new urban legend than some fact from the books.

So assuming what those people say is true about ARCHIE's production capabilities (And I'm not saying they are, as I haven't seen the source which they're supposedly working off of), ARCHIE has the clear advantage when it comes to numbers. He can quickly produce an army equal in size to the Coalition and, in a prolonged war, increase its size much more quickly than the Coalition can increase its forces. And ARCHIE's army can continue to increase at a steady pace, a pace which is limited only by his access to the raw materials necessary to make his robots, while the Coalition's ability to increase the size of its forces will eventually plateau before it begins dropping due to the limits of relying on an army based on flesh and blood soldiers.

ARCHIE's total forces: approximately 60,000 robots.
The Coalition's Skelebot forces alone: approximately 400,000 robots.
The Coalition's Dog Boy forces alone: approximately 100,000 mutant canines.
The Coalition's current human troop strength: approximately, at least 1.4 million as of P.A. 109 (and that's just the injured troops; see Rifts: Aftermath page 138).

PLUS the Coalition will be using its already-established military to cripple resupply and refit lines to locate and smash ARCHIE's factories......while ARCHIE, for all his awesome smarts, will essentially have to build up his collection of 'bots into a military force from the ground up (there's a whole lot more to fielding an army than just having a bunch of troops, and one of those x-factors is troop placement).

cornholioprime wrote:

Cyber-Knight wrote:

The 'gripe' being made here is that some folks are essentially trying to handicap the Coalition by making ARCHIE do something smart (speeding up production) while making the Coalition do something that is comparatively stupid (just sitting back and letting ARCHIE do so without adapting in their own right as might be needed).

Nobody's handicapping anything. It's just a simple fact that it's easier to produce a robot soldier, which ARCHIE depends entirely on, than a human soldier, which forms the main strength of the Coalition military.

So now the Coalition all of a sudden doesn't have Skelebots anymore?

A massively inferior robot compared to the robots ARCHIE-3 can and does produce. Robots that ARCHIE-3 can and has perfectly duplicated will promptly become an untrustworthy asset once those fakes start doing obvious acts of terrorism. From the CS perspective someone's either learned how to make perfect copies of their robots or they've learned how to suborn control over the actual CS robots at will either way they can't continue using them when they can't trust that the robots they're using won't turn on them and attack them when they're most vulnerable.

Once you've got hundreds or thousands of skelebots seeming to suddenly serve a foreign hostile power and no way to tell them apart or determine where the problem's at they can't continue using them.

everything i`ve seen implies that 100,000 dog boys is an extremely conservative estimate compared to what i suspect we would find if we started checking canon sources.

(again, not that i necessarily agree with the canon sources for the CS production either, but i can`t argue that the books don`t say it... i can only argue that i don`t think it makes sense).

cornholioprime wrote:

Nether wrote:***snip***
......Now for Archie, i see him as many already mentioned, he is sitting 'dormant' for lack of a better term as he is not in the process of building a military force, but Always always preparing for it. So he would have many factories created and at the ready to pump out forces en-masse. He could have a good many of the pre rifts installations hidden and just waiting to come online not to mention stockpiles upon stockpiles of resources not to mention him thru the 300 year dark age would be also stockpiling for insane amounts of fast production.
.......
So to me, alot of Archie's production facilities would have been created after the apocalypse and where other nations built militaries, ARchie went purely for the mass increase of infrastructure which would rival anything in NA by alot. (kind of like in WW2, the US could out produces prolly all the other allies combined)

Just adding my 2c

Cyber-Knight wrote:In another thread they were talking about how ARCHIE's capable of churning out 400,000 robots per month if he really wanted to. So in six months that's 2.4 million robots in addition to what he already has. That'd be more than enough to go head-to-head with the Coalition, and that's in the opening days of the war. As it drags on the Coalition's losing soldiers which aren't so easy to replace while ARCHIE-3 is still pumping out 400,000 new soldiers every month.

jaymz wrote:Pretty sure that can be taken care of since the OP did say Archie had been building up his forces for 6 months. Archie building up forces for 6 months night and day 7 days a week non-stop. Archie's only real failing is a lack of airbourne bots.

jaymz wrote:The big difference here is he has never been stated as actively building up for war. In fact I have seen it written than several factories aren't even use at the moment. That would indicate, at least to me, that he could have SIGNIFICANTLY greater numbers if he were to put his mind to it.

To all those of you who keep trumpeting about ARCHIE's (supposed) potential production capabilities:

Why is it that you speak incessantly about what ARCHIE might be able to do in terms of ramping up production....but leave the Coalition in this particular scenario stranded in a sort of intellectual temporal stasis whereby they wouldn't ramp up their production as well??

My question is almost rhetorical (okay, maybe it IS rhetorical), and my answer to my own question is that those of you who are counting on ARCHIE to ramp up production while making the Coalition stand still, are handicapping the Coalition in order to achieve a certain outcome in the debate.

Because that is what the books talk about for Archie, is his insane production capabilities.

The CS come across as 'always' at full production hence their massive army and they are always fighting. They do not come across as a nation that has idle time, and military is always at full production. To me the only thing that would make sense for them to "ramp up" production anymore as you say, would be if they started sacrificing other areas of the nation, like drafting all civillians as military making the entire populace soldiers. But if they choose to ramp up like this, then would definately suffer in the long run as birthrate would take a major hit, drafting the scientists as soldiers to increase army also causes less research to be done and tech level is affected, ext ext. If you were to 'assume' that both Archie and the CS started with the same resources, (video game like) and the CS built an empire but with strong military focus while Archie built mainly productions facilities that it naturally makes sense that Archie would have a much larger production ability vs the CS who has a much bigger military atm but also cant produce what ARchie 'could' if he turned on all those factories.

My comment mentions that it 'appears' that while the CS was making civillian structures, military support structures, farming improvement, agriculture, propaganda enforcement ext ext, all these non purely 'build factories, factories, factories occupied alot of their resources whereas Archie predominantly only built production facilities. So the trade off for his massive production ability is he literally has a pretty small 'army' if you can call it that.

I enjoy the CS alot, and i am not low balling them but I seriously cant see the CS who didnt come straight thru as a golden age tech empire who needs to focus it's resources on many things and making a massive military army to me just can't compare to Archie who is a golden age tech'r, who has a small army but there is always mention of his insane production abilities just makes sense that he dwarfs everyone in NA in this regard. It is really the only thing he has to show for that is remotely significant about his 'empire'.

Now if the CS did not build a massive army, but instead put all of those 'soldiers' to work instead as contruction/scientists/engineers, professions that focus on production then they would prolly be close to archie in raw production ability, but then they wouldnt have a military at all either.

Also as my 'game' example above, to me Archie would have started this 'race' ahead of the CS, and he has the benefit that his bots never need rest whereas the CS does. Shifts doesnt matter because Archie bots would be working 24/7 with no rests required, but humans need rests, breaks ext and also have other things that can effect their work like sickness, age, endurance, injury, emotional drama ext.)

Am I clarifying my view better that it sounds more reasonable to you?

EDIT: Just wanted to mention as well, if the CS found Archie's facilities, as they learned about him and went on the hunt, Archie would be scruwed because there is No way he could defend against the CS, and all that super focus on production gets either taken by the CS (most likely) or destroyed, either way Archie would be done for. But this scenario says Archie is deploying and in this scenario I cant see Archie losing. If it was current status, well i dont see Archie mobilizing.. almost never.

Nightmask wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Cyber-Knight wrote:

The 'gripe' being made here is that some folks are essentially trying to handicap the Coalition by making ARCHIE do something smart (speeding up production) while making the Coalition do something that is comparatively stupid (just sitting back and letting ARCHIE do so without adapting in their own right as might be needed).

Nobody's handicapping anything. It's just a simple fact that it's easier to produce a robot soldier, which ARCHIE depends entirely on, than a human soldier, which forms the main strength of the Coalition military.

So now the Coalition all of a sudden doesn't have Skelebots anymore?

A massively inferior robot compared to the robots ARCHIE-3 can and does produce.

And in real life, the Chinese Army is "massively inferior" to our own (meaning the United States), even with their recent efforts at militarization; and yet, they are expected to come out on top, and decisively, in any ground wars between them and us.

At SOME point, numerical superiority trumps troop quality; that's why you send in even SEALs and SAS and Spetsznaz to do surgical strikes behind the scenes, not to take on entire armies (look at what happened to that one SEAL Team a few years back in Afghanistan when enough unskilled Afghani fighters overwhelmed them; I think that only one of them survived, even though they kicked ass in terms of us-vs.-them body count before they checked out).
At SOME point.......Army One that outnumbers Army Two by at least 10-to-one will take out Army Two -one assumes that while Skelebots are indeed inferior to ARCHIE-tech, all that the lot of them have to do is point and shoot.

Robots that ARCHIE-3 can and has perfectly duplicated will promptly become an untrustworthy asset once those fakes start doing obvious acts of terrorism.

A. There's not that many of them.

B. Skelebots aren't usually equipped with the heaviest of heavy ordnance, just their sidearms.

C. Skelebots aren't for the most part kept in highly-secure areas, and usually far away from even Coalition human troops.

D. Even those 'bots combined can't do that much damage before they are individually destroyed (it is an extremely simple task to just tell all the other Skells to shoot down the "malfunctioning" units in the future), and NOBODY logically expects the Coalition to just shut down wholesale the entire set of killing machines.

From the CS perspective someone's either learned how to make perfect copies of their robots or they've learned how to suborn control over the actual CS robots at will either way they can't continue using them when they can't trust that the robots they're using won't turn on them and attack them when they're most vulnerable.

When "Enemy Plants" dressed up in the uniform of the army pull off small-scale killings of friendly units and acts of sabotage, does the Army just recall the entire force?

No?

Didn't think so, and that's with precious, non-expendable human lives in real life. It is therefore illogical to entertain the notion that the fictional Coalition, who uses the Skells as cannon fodder, is going to just shut down the lot of them.

Once you've got hundreds or thousands of skelebots seeming to suddenly serve a foreign hostile power and no way to tell them apart or determine where the problem's at they can't continue using them.

But you don't have even hundreds of these ARCHIE-Skells running around, much thousands of them.
(ARCHIE knows that his Skells CAN be found out by their internal programming, they don't have self-destruct programs [so as to maintain their cover], and that's why he doesn't make so very many of them.)

Moreover, any number of simple counter-measures could be implanted into future versions of Skells that even ARCHIE might not be able to (easily) defeat.

Shark_Force wrote:everything i`ve seen implies that 100,000 dog boys is an extremely conservative estimate compared to what i suspect we would find if we started checking canon sources.

(again, not that i necessarily agree with the canon sources for the CS production either, but i can`t argue that the books don`t say it... i can only argue that i don`t think it makes sense).

Yep. The CS fielded 100,000 Dog Boys in the final assault on Tolkeen. That didn't include those that survived with Jericho Holmes, or the ones returning from Free Quebec. Plus those who are defending the various States, the ISS forces, and those being trained in Lone Star. The old sourcebook one had the Dog Boys as equal to 10% of the CS population. That'd be over a million. 100,000 sounds kind of low.

Also, I'm unsure where the 400,000 Skelebots comes from. The CS fielded at least 1.5 million against Tolkeen alone. I'd think they have more than 400,000 total.

Also don't forget Psi-Stalkers. Not sure of the total numbers but I'd bet it was into the 100s of thousands.

cornholioprime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Cyber-Knight wrote:

The 'gripe' being made here is that some folks are essentially trying to handicap the Coalition by making ARCHIE do something smart (speeding up production) while making the Coalition do something that is comparatively stupid (just sitting back and letting ARCHIE do so without adapting in their own right as might be needed).

Nobody's handicapping anything. It's just a simple fact that it's easier to produce a robot soldier, which ARCHIE depends entirely on, than a human soldier, which forms the main strength of the Coalition military.

So now the Coalition all of a sudden doesn't have Skelebots anymore?

A massively inferior robot compared to the robots ARCHIE-3 can and does produce.

And in real life, the Chinese Army is "massively inferior" to our own (meaning the United States), even with their recent efforts at militarization; and yet, they are expected to come out on top, and decisively, in any ground wars between them and us.

At SOME point, numerical superiority trumps troop quality; that's why you send in even SEALs and SAS and Spetsznaz to do surgical strikes behind the scenes, not to take on entire armies (look at what happened to that one SEAL Team a few years back in Afghanistan when enough unskilled Afghani fighters overwhelmed them; I think that only one of them survived, even though they kicked ass in terms of us-vs.-them body count before they checked out).
At SOME point.......Army One that outnumbers Army Two by at least 10-to-one will take out Army Two -one assumes that while Skelebots are indeed inferior to ARCHIE-tech, all that the lot of them have to do is point and shoot.

Which would be in error, as 'point and shoot' isn't going to be such a 'certain win' for the skelebots, nor is it valid to insist that the CS has numerical superiority to the point it makes up for their obvious inferiority to ARCHIE-3's products.

cornholioprime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Robots that ARCHIE-3 can and has perfectly duplicated will promptly become an untrustworthy asset once those fakes start doing obvious acts of terrorism.

A. There's not that many of them.

B. Skelebots aren't usually equipped with the heaviest of heavy ordnance, just their sidearms.

C. Skelebots aren't for the most part kept in highly-secure areas, and usually far away from even Coalition human troops.

D. Even those 'bots combined can't do that much damage before they are individually destroyed (it is an extremely simple task to just tell all the other Skells to shoot down the "malfunctioning" units in the future), and NOBODY logically expects the Coalition to just shut down wholesale the entire set of killing machines.

You've a different concept of 'logic' then compared to the average, as logically a military isn't going to keep using a defective product under such conditions. It doesn't take many faux skelebots to make sidelining or dimantling all or nearly all skelebots a necessity because you can't go 'well gee I think this batch is safe' when you can't be sure of that and the survival or your own troops is on the line.

cornholioprime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:From the CS perspective someone's either learned how to make perfect copies of their robots or they've learned how to suborn control over the actual CS robots at will either way they can't continue using them when they can't trust that the robots they're using won't turn on them and attack them when they're most vulnerable.

When "Enemy Plants" dressed up in the uniform of the army pull off small-scale killings of friendly units and acts of sabotage, does the Army just recall the entire force?

No?

Didn't think so, and that's with precious, non-expendable human lives in real life. It is therefore illogical to entertain the notion that the fictional Coalition, who uses the Skells as cannon fodder, is going to just shut down the lot of them.

Flawed logic, we aren't talking troops we're talking machines. If some transports suddenly started blowing up or 'accidentally' running over soldiers do you think the military would keep using them? Or course not. Not only are they proving unreliable but they're detrimental to the war effort. If a machine (i.e. Skelebot) starts demonstrating unreliability you don't continue using it you recall it and either locate and fix the problem or scrap it because of the inherent dangers of continuing to use something you know has a chance of turning on you destructively.

cornholioprime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Once you've got hundreds or thousands of skelebots seeming to suddenly serve a foreign hostile power and no way to tell them apart or determine where the problem's at they can't continue using them.

But you don't have even hundreds of these ARCHIE-Skells running around, much thousands of them.
(ARCHIE knows that his Skells CAN be found out by their internal programming, they don't have self-destruct programs [so as to maintain their cover], and that's why he doesn't make so very many of them.)

Moreover, any number of simple counter-measures could be implanted into future versions of Skells that even ARCHIE might not be able to (easily) defeat.

So you think that ARCHIE-3 wouldn't just make more as a terror tactic? Now who's being limiting? As far as the material on ARCHIE-3's Skelebots goes, everything says his bots completely pass muster to the point that some have by random chance ended up in some of the most secure of locations on the CS, something they clearly can't have done without being undetectable for what they are because they've had to have undergone checks at various points before getting that far.

You're also tossing out unfounded hypotheticals there as if they were certainties, starting with the 'well they can just add simple counter-measures that inexplicably would be hard to overcome'. Given a 'ARCHIE-3 goes to war with the Coalition' scenario the CS isn't going to have time to implement any such attempted counter-measures, but they are going to have to deal with the problems of being unable to tell what skelebots can be trusted (and again we know for a fact that NONE of ARCHIE-3's fakes have been detected in spite of being scattered throughout every level of CS security) and the likelihood if not certainty of ARCHIE-3 creating a lot more just to add to the confusion. He could easily create entire fake CS troops and using his intelligence have them infiltrating and engaging in acts of terrorism to spread confusion. Meanwhile ARCHIE-3's troops are quite immune to such tactics unlike the CS and its human troops.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:That's the thing. It's NOT. The CS really IS protecting humanity. It really IS a power to keep humanity going. It really DOES fight monsters. Now.. the monsters don't see it that way, but the CS humans sure do. YOU are forgetting the 200 years of dark ages where countless monsters of every stripe preyed on the remnants of humanity unchecked. You're acting like they are all just misunderstood people with different colored skin or heads like in Star Trek. In rifts, monsters and such really exist and the CS keeps it's people safe from the REAL ones, and the preceived ones.

The CS just don't take the time to classify "Good alien invaders" and "bad alien invaders". The fact is they really ARE alien invaders and the CS civilians fears them. The CS military protects them. That endears an almost unshakable trust.

I never said that the CS wasn't fighting monsters or doing some good things for humanity. But they are telling the people thru propaganda that they are doing good things for humanity, but they are hiding the facts that they are also slaughtering humans as well that get in the way, as well as tons of bdee villages.

Yeah, but those camps held humans. not 40 foot tall demons, or Neuron beasts, or brodkill, or t-rexes, or 100 other monstrous frightening things that the CS battles and keeps from eating humanity.

Even today, look at how many people won't vote for Obama, simply because he's black. Or how humans kill humans over a you tube video daring to disparage their prophet. Now tell me again after 200+ years of real life monsters of 1000 different kinds have preyed on humanity, how humanity would be just accepting of all the creatures and give them the benefit of the doubt?

The camps i am talking about would have plenty of the lesser dbee's fighting for tolkeen (same kinds living in the CS burbs) as well as humans as well. I haven looked over SoT book in a while but I suspect the CS would just kill the majority of the stuff you just quoted instead of death camping it.

What do you think the CS leadership is doing to the average CS citizen, that they'd be opposed to?

I think the average CS citz would be opposed to genocide, to slaughtering defenseless villages and other dbees that are no threat to the CS, the real reasons to why FQ left the CS and eventually allied with Tolkeen against them, their own human people cut from the same/close empire ext ext, .. the negative points that is listed over and over on these boards that the CS does.

Tolkeen was a demon loving and monstrous nation that militerized to take on the CS and defeat it. They delt with demons, their generals were evil and they rifted in demonic armies. You're not going to play the poor pitiful card on the CS populace.

Uh what?, No they were not that way initially. They were forced into a corner by a warmonger empire threatening to take their land and lives, and they were drastically outgunned by the CS. Choosing to not leave your land and kingdom is not an evil action. Tolk made some bad calls along the war timeline but they were originally nothing like how they were at the end of the war. Again, even FQ decided to turn on their human brothers who they were a part of for a while because the CS was taking some things too far.

I can say with pretty strong certainty that if Tolk didnt go the demon route and stayed more to the positive forces, they would have retained the cyber knights and FQ would not have felt the demon hoards have changed their ally so much that they had to abandon them.

Have you turned on the news...... ever? lol

Dude, there is a major difference between todays news story spins and nazi propaganda. We have freedom of the press, and they spin it to make the story more exciting. The nazis propaganda spins it to hide the bad chit they are doing from the people en masse and there is no freedom to say what is on your mind. If the CS felt the citz would fully support all their actions they wouldnt need to hide the bad stuff they are doing, as mentioned above.

They do use Propaganda. Same as ours does. Same as ----every---- nation has done since Rome where the town criers said what they were told to say. We have instant world wide news today and we still get our news from a few select sources. The CS don't.

I think you are missing the element of severity. A non freedom of the press propaganda government that treats its population as dumb sheep that should just eat what they spoon compared to a freedom of the press nation that spins stories to be more interesting are two different things in my mind.

And i never said the CS populace would all just up and turn against the gov. I was merely pointing out that if the things the CS has been conceiling from its Citz came to light it would cause some unrest. How much unrest? Enough that you would have some resistance groups form, many questions being asked, but not enough that it stops them from functioning.

cornholioprime wrote:The 'gripe' being made here is that some folks are essentially trying to handicap the Coalition by making ARCHIE do something smart (speeding up production) while making the Coalition do something that is comparatively stupid (just sitting back and letting ARCHIE do so without adapting in their own right as might be needed).

I could use your same logic to say you are handicapping this scenario because Archie currently has a very small military force and nothing else statted out, but yet you ignore the books like rSB1 and what others have mentioned that Archie is repeatedly the king of sorts of production in NA. Someone mentioned that Archie is even sending 40k robots per month to Atlantis.

This scenario gives Archie first strike and 6 months of prep, and it is a high guestimation that he can produce some pretty crazy numbers of troops. That is the part of this scenario that gives advantage to Archie imo.

Nether wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:The 'gripe' being made here is that some folks are essentially trying to handicap the Coalition by making ARCHIE do something smart (speeding up production) while making the Coalition do something that is comparatively stupid (just sitting back and letting ARCHIE do so without adapting in their own right as might be needed).

I could use your same logic to say you are handicapping this scenario because Archie currently has a very small military force and nothing else statted out, but yet you ignore the books like rSB1 and what others have mentioned that Archie is repeatedly the king of sorts of production in NA. Someone mentioned that Archie is even sending 40k robots per month to Atlantis.

This scenario gives Archie first strike and 6 months of prep, and it is a high guestimation that he can produce some pretty crazy numbers of troops. That is the part of this scenario that gives advantage to Archie imo.

Again is 40k robots a month in rSB1? I thought that was a rifter article.

Hystrix wrote:

Nether wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:The 'gripe' being made here is that some folks are essentially trying to handicap the Coalition by making ARCHIE do something smart (speeding up production) while making the Coalition do something that is comparatively stupid (just sitting back and letting ARCHIE do so without adapting in their own right as might be needed).

I could use your same logic to say you are handicapping this scenario because Archie currently has a very small military force and nothing else statted out, but yet you ignore the books like rSB1 and what others have mentioned that Archie is repeatedly the king of sorts of production in NA. Someone mentioned that Archie is even sending 40k robots per month to Atlantis.

This scenario gives Archie first strike and 6 months of prep, and it is a high guestimation that he can produce some pretty crazy numbers of troops. That is the part of this scenario that gives advantage to Archie imo.

Again is 40k robots a month in rSB1? I thought that was a rifter article.

Just keep in mind that Rifter Article is Canon though the info about Atlantis is, I believe split between SB1R, Aftermath and Splynn.

Hystrix wrote:

Nether wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:The 'gripe' being made here is that some folks are essentially trying to handicap the Coalition by making ARCHIE do something smart (speeding up production) while making the Coalition do something that is comparatively stupid (just sitting back and letting ARCHIE do so without adapting in their own right as might be needed).

I could use your same logic to say you are handicapping this scenario because Archie currently has a very small military force and nothing else statted out, but yet you ignore the books like rSB1 and what others have mentioned that Archie is repeatedly the king of sorts of production in NA. Someone mentioned that Archie is even sending 40k robots per month to Atlantis.

This scenario gives Archie first strike and 6 months of prep, and it is a high guestimation that he can produce some pretty crazy numbers of troops. That is the part of this scenario that gives advantage to Archie imo.

Again is 40k robots a month in rSB1? I thought that was a rifter article.

Honestly I do not know for sure, that is why i posed it as what someone else mentioned. If it is not in rSB1 or a official story in rifter then I would retract that statement, I thought someone confirmed it already and I do not have enough time between replies atm to search. I also remember reading comment in this thread that 'most' of the articles to do with Archie in the Rifter were official. but at the moment i can not confirm that.

If anyone know please post the sources, thx.

Edit: thx Jaymz

Nether wrote:
Honestly I do not know for sure, that is why i posed it as what someone else mentioned. If it is not in rSB1 or a official story in rifter then I would retract that statement, I thought someone confirmed it already and I do not have enough time between replies atm to search. I also remember reading comment in this thread that 'most' of the articles to do with Archie in the Rifter were official. but at the moment i can not confirm that.

If anyone know please post the sources, thx.

Edit: thx Jaymz

I haven't seen a good source yet. A random Rifter article trumps everythjing written in rSB1 and Shemmer Nation?

Hystrix wrote:

Nether wrote:
Honestly I do not know for sure, that is why i posed it as what someone else mentioned. If it is not in rSB1 or a official story in rifter then I would retract that statement, I thought someone confirmed it already and I do not have enough time between replies atm to search. I also remember reading comment in this thread that 'most' of the articles to do with Archie in the Rifter were official. but at the moment i can not confirm that.

If anyone know please post the sources, thx.

Edit: thx Jaymz

I haven't seen a good source yet. A random Rifter article trumps everythjing written in rSB1 and Shemmer Nation?

It's not a matter of trumping it. It is a matter of supplementing it. The article in the Rifter (I want to say #4) is official and canon and fleshes out some things as does Aftermath and Splynn (Argent Goodson has a brother Sgt beta who is on the island continent).

Sorry to interrupt, just pointing out a couple things...

Nether wrote:

Tolkeen was a demon loving and monstrous nation that militerized to take on the CS and defeat it. They delt with demons, their generals were evil and they rifted in demonic armies. You're not going to play the poor pitiful card on the CS populace.

Uh what?, No they were not that way initially. They were forced into a corner by a warmonger empire threatening to take their land and lives, and they were drastically outgunned by the CS. Choosing to not leave your land and kingdom is not an evil action. Tolk made some bad calls along the war timeline but they were originally nothing like how they were at the end of the war. Again, even FQ decided to turn on their human brothers who they were a part of for a while because the CS was taking some things too far.

According to the timeline in SoT 1, Tolkeen began building up its military for the express purpose of 'teaching the CS a lesson' 16-17 years before the actual Seige. Even then, Tolkeen was only pushed to the top of the CS Hit List when it stepped up the recruitment of demons circa PA 100-101. The leaders of Tolkeen (King Creed in particular) wanted the war just as much as the CS leaders did.

I don't believe that FQ had any intention of following through on any deals made with Tolkeen. Despite their differences with the CS, FQ was still on the same ("humanities") side. They only agreed to 'ally' with Tolkeen's forces in order to ambush and destroy them to give the CS a hand against a common enemy (ie magic using "demon-lovers" if you will). It is this action that makes the Emperor Prosek realize how foolish it was to start a ruckus with FQ in the first place.

FQ had a problem with the 'inhuman' nature of Psi-Stalkers and Dogboys utilized by the CS, there was noooo way they were seriously going to go buddy up with Tolkeen.

That's all I wanted to mention. Carry on.

Hystrix wrote:

Nether wrote:
Honestly I do not know for sure, that is why i posed it as what someone else mentioned. If it is not in rSB1 or a official story in rifter then I would retract that statement, I thought someone confirmed it already and I do not have enough time between replies atm to search. I also remember reading comment in this thread that 'most' of the articles to do with Archie in the Rifter were official. but at the moment i can not confirm that.

If anyone know please post the sources, thx.

Edit: thx Jaymz

I haven't seen a good source yet. A random Rifter article trumps everythjing written in rSB1 and Shemmer Nation?

It doesnt matter 'where' official materiel is printed, it is official. When it contradicts then chances are the 'newer' info takes precedence usually.

Nether wrote:

Hystrix wrote:

Nether wrote:Honestly I do not know for sure, that is why i posed it as what someone else mentioned. If it is not in rSB1 or a official story in rifter then I would retract that statement, I thought someone confirmed it already and I do not have enough time between replies atm to search. I also remember reading comment in this thread that 'most' of the articles to do with Archie in the Rifter were official. but at the moment i can not confirm that.

If anyone know please post the sources, thx.

Edit: thx Jaymz

I haven't seen a good source yet. A random Rifter article trumps everythjing written in rSB1 and Shemmer Nation?

It doesnt matter 'where' official materiel is printed, it is official. When it contradicts then chances are the 'newer' info takes precedence usually.

Plus Palladium moved it from 'optional official' to 'official' when they started using the actual Rifter material in main books, if the main books are using the material then it's not fanon as most Rifter material is but canon.

Nightmask wrote:

Nether wrote:

Hystrix wrote:

Nether wrote:Honestly I do not know for sure, that is why i posed it as what someone else mentioned. If it is not in rSB1 or a official story in rifter then I would retract that statement, I thought someone confirmed it already and I do not have enough time between replies atm to search. I also remember reading comment in this thread that 'most' of the articles to do with Archie in the Rifter were official. but at the moment i can not confirm that.

If anyone know please post the sources, thx.

Edit: thx Jaymz

I haven't seen a good source yet. A random Rifter article trumps everythjing written in rSB1 and Shemmer Nation?

It doesnt matter 'where' official materiel is printed, it is official. When it contradicts then chances are the 'newer' info takes precedence usually.

Plus Palladium moved it from 'optional official' to 'official' when they started using the actual Rifter material in main books, if the main books are using the material then it's not fanon as most Rifter material is but canon.

This first part is in response to Nether...
It matters if the source even exists... no one has posted a quote let alone book and page number for the information. We don't know where this information is coming from only that it is being talked about and accepted with no apparent references to back up it's validity.

Now for Nightmask...
What? Just because a portion of an article is used in an official publication doesn't mean that the whole thing is official... it just means that that reprinted portion is accepted...

Regardless we need book and page numbers at the least preferably with quotes to see to the validity of this disputed bit of information.

Mercdog wrote:Sorry to interrupt, just pointing out a couple things...

Nether wrote:

Tolkeen was a demon loving and monstrous nation that militerized to take on the CS and defeat it. They delt with demons, their generals were evil and they rifted in demonic armies. You're not going to play the poor pitiful card on the CS populace.

Uh what?, No they were not that way initially. They were forced into a corner by a warmonger empire threatening to take their land and lives, and they were drastically outgunned by the CS. Choosing to not leave your land and kingdom is not an evil action. Tolk made some bad calls along the war timeline but they were originally nothing like how they were at the end of the war. Again, even FQ decided to turn on their human brothers who they were a part of for a while because the CS was taking some things too far.

I don't believe that FQ had any intention of following through on any deals made with Tolkeen. Despite their differences with the CS, FQ was still on the same ("humanities") side. They only agreed to 'ally' with Tolkeen's forces in order to ambush and destroy them to give the CS a hand against a common enemy (ie magic using "demon-lovers" if you will). It is this action that makes the Emperor Prosek realize how foolish it was to start a ruckus with FQ in the first place.

FQ had a problem with the 'inhuman' nature of Psi-Stalkers and Dogboys utilized by the CS, there was noooo way they were seriously going to go buddy up with Tolkeen.

That's all I wanted to mention. Carry on.

It never said that FQ was going to "buddy up" with Tolk, but it does say they agreed to a permenent non aggression pact which would follow suit for FQ as they havent been going after anyone or looking for trouble.

The only reason it gives why FQ turned was because the feild commander gave contradictory orders than what he had from his superiors because he couldnt stand seeing demons rip up the humans. But FQ has always seem to have problems with the CS and they are never pretty solid bedmates.

So that to me suggests that had Tolk sent a more humane type of units to FQ, this even would have never have happened.

@Slight That i understand hence why asking anyone to cite some book with the info to affirm any comments I have been making.

I checked Rifter 4 and it doesnt mention anything about the 40k troops to Atlantis.

Nether wrote:

Mercdog wrote:Sorry to interrupt, just pointing out a couple things...

Nether wrote:

Tolkeen was a demon loving and monstrous nation that militerized to take on the CS and defeat it. They delt with demons, their generals were evil and they rifted in demonic armies. You're not going to play the poor pitiful card on the CS populace.

Uh what?, No they were not that way initially. They were forced into a corner by a warmonger empire threatening to take their land and lives, and they were drastically outgunned by the CS. Choosing to not leave your land and kingdom is not an evil action. Tolk made some bad calls along the war timeline but they were originally nothing like how they were at the end of the war. Again, even FQ decided to turn on their human brothers who they were a part of for a while because the CS was taking some things too far.

I don't believe that FQ had any intention of following through on any deals made with Tolkeen. Despite their differences with the CS, FQ was still on the same ("humanities") side. They only agreed to 'ally' with Tolkeen's forces in order to ambush and destroy them to give the CS a hand against a common enemy (ie magic using "demon-lovers" if you will). It is this action that makes the Emperor Prosek realize how foolish it was to start a ruckus with FQ in the first place.

FQ had a problem with the 'inhuman' nature of Psi-Stalkers and Dogboys utilized by the CS, there was noooo way they were seriously going to go buddy up with Tolkeen.

That's all I wanted to mention. Carry on.

It never said that FQ was going to "buddy up" with Tolk, but it does say they agreed to a permenent non aggression pact which would follow suit for FQ as they havent been going after anyone or looking for trouble.

The only reason it gives why FQ turned was because the feild commander gave contradictory orders than what he had from his superiors because he couldnt stand seeing demons rip up the humans. But FQ has always seem to have problems with the CS and they are never pretty solid bedmates.

So that to me suggests that had Tolk sent a more humane type of units to FQ, this even would have never have happened.

@Slight That i understand hence why asking anyone to cite some book with the info to affirm any comments I have been making.

its in SOT 6 page 9 and you are wrong it give two different ones its whether it was a change of heart because of the sorcerer's revenge or FQ never intended to lived up to the deal.

Slight001 wrote:
This first part is in response to Nether...
It matters if the source even exists... no one has posted a quote let alone book and page number for the information. We don't know where this information is coming from only that it is being talked about and accepted with no apparent references to back up it's validity.

Now for Nightmask...
What? Just because a portion of an article is used in an official publication doesn't mean that the whole thing is official... it just means that that reprinted portion is accepted...

Regardless we need book and page numbers at the least preferably with quotes to see to the validity of this disputed bit of information.

Bolded for truth. All i've seen is "Archie can produce 400k bots per month" with no quote source or page number. I've aslked on this and another thread and have yet to get a concreate answer.

Slight001 wrote:What? Just because a portion of an article is used in an official publication doesn't mean that the whole thing is official... it just means that that reprinted portion is accepted....

That makes as much sense as claiming that because they referred to a paragraph in a section of book X regarding something that nothing else in the book was valid because they didn't reprint it all, which makes no sense at all. Without proof to the contrary one must assume that the entire entry on ARCHIE-3 in the Rifter article is considered canon one cannot claim that 'gee no it's just the part they referenced' because that's simply not logical.

So, the fact that Palladium references the Rifter material on ARCHIE-3 makes the body of it valid in total because there isn't anything to say otherwise.

Hystrix wrote:

Slight001 wrote:
This first part is in response to Nether...
It matters if the source even exists... no one has posted a quote let alone book and page number for the information. We don't know where this information is coming from only that it is being talked about and accepted with no apparent references to back up it's validity.

Now for Nightmask...
What? Just because a portion of an article is used in an official publication doesn't mean that the whole thing is official... it just means that that reprinted portion is accepted...

Regardless we need book and page numbers at the least preferably with quotes to see to the validity of this disputed bit of information.

Bolded for truth. All i've seen is "Archie can produce 400k bots per month" with no quote source or page number. I've aslked on this and another thread and have yet to get a concreate answer.

would be nice if one the people claiming this would produce a page number.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Hystrix wrote:

Slight001 wrote:
This first part is in response to Nether...
It matters if the source even exists... no one has posted a quote let alone book and page number for the information. We don't know where this information is coming from only that it is being talked about and accepted with no apparent references to back up it's validity.

Now for Nightmask...
What? Just because a portion of an article is used in an official publication doesn't mean that the whole thing is official... it just means that that reprinted portion is accepted...

Regardless we need book and page numbers at the least preferably with quotes to see to the validity of this disputed bit of information.

Bolded for truth. All i've seen is "Archie can produce 400k bots per month" with no quote source or page number. I've aslked on this and another thread and have yet to get a concreate answer.

would be nice if one the people claiming this would produce a page number.

Yeah. I'm starting to think there isn't one. Just one of those silly claims. I could be wrong, but I want some solid evidence on this one.

Holy relax guys.

Here is a source that backs up what I have been saying as I have not 'claimed' any numbers as official here.

SB1, pg 11. wrote:
Furthermore, his superior robot designs and mass production capabilities can beat the
Coalition's any day of the week. The CS (and all people in the Americas) are fortunate
that the indecisive and timid A.I. is hesitant to make his presence known to the world

This statement shows that Archie's production abilities are SUPERIOR to the CS, not by a little, not by a lot, but by a landslide. It also says that not just the CS, but all of the people in the Americas which would be forutnate, so the combined production ability of CS, FQ, NG, Wilks, Bandito, ext would be lucky not to face Archie in this arena.

That is a pretty bold statement to make in the book and I would think it wouldnt have been made unless his production abilities really are that crazy.

Now the citation doesnt give specific numbers, but this clears up the counter points Cornholio brought up about CS production.

Hystix, you are posting in the other thread this was posted, yet you mention nothing of it? It shows me your only agenda.

Just to add if anyone knows as i have started searching but yet to find it, it is mentioned in the NEMA thread that Splynn book is where it mentions 40k robots are sent to Atlantis but I have no citation yet for it.

Nether wrote:

Mercdog wrote:Sorry to interrupt, just pointing out a couple things...

Nether wrote:

Tolkeen was a demon loving and monstrous nation that militerized to take on the CS and defeat it. They delt with demons, their generals were evil and they rifted in demonic armies. You're not going to play the poor pitiful card on the CS populace.

Uh what?, No they were not that way initially. They were forced into a corner by a warmonger empire threatening to take their land and lives, and they were drastically outgunned by the CS. Choosing to not leave your land and kingdom is not an evil action. Tolk made some bad calls along the war timeline but they were originally nothing like how they were at the end of the war. Again, even FQ decided to turn on their human brothers who they were a part of for a while because the CS was taking some things too far.

I don't believe that FQ had any intention of following through on any deals made with Tolkeen. Despite their differences with the CS, FQ was still on the same ("humanities") side. They only agreed to 'ally' with Tolkeen's forces in order to ambush and destroy them to give the CS a hand against a common enemy (ie magic using "demon-lovers" if you will). It is this action that makes the Emperor Prosek realize how foolish it was to start a ruckus with FQ in the first place.

FQ had a problem with the 'inhuman' nature of Psi-Stalkers and Dogboys utilized by the CS, there was noooo way they were seriously going to go buddy up with Tolkeen.

That's all I wanted to mention. Carry on.

It never said that FQ was going to "buddy up" with Tolk, but it does say they agreed to a permenent non aggression pact which would follow suit for FQ as they havent been going after anyone or looking for trouble.

The only reason it gives why FQ turned was because the feild commander gave contradictory orders than what he had from his superiors because he couldnt stand seeing demons rip up the humans. But FQ has always seem to have problems with the CS and they are never pretty solid bedmates.

So that to me suggests that had Tolk sent a more humane type of units to FQ, this even would have never have happened.

Meh, IMO an invitation to team up and annihilate a common foe is a form of 'buddy-up'. Potato, potahtoe.

As for the rest, is that expanded upon in Aftermath? I saw no mention of mistaken commands or overzealous field officers made in SoT 6, but I don't have Aftermath to check for differences. Only the debateable question in SoT 6 is whether FQ changed their mind at the last minute, or if they had intented to betray Tolkeen from the beginning (which is where I'd put my money).

RedRose wrote:SB1 revised, pg 61.

"Archie three is so happy with the way things are going that he has deployed a battalion of robots into Atlantis to aid his creation"

This was in refrence to Sgt Beta, it then continues on to state the following on down a couple sentances.

"There are also some bots on independent assignment too"

This does not give any accurate numeric value for the bots on independent assignment, only that there is a Battalion there to support Sgt Beta's actions and then even more there doing their own thing.

That could mean the numbers are between 300 to 1200 total

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

RedRose wrote:SB1 revised, pg 61.

"Archie three is so happy with the way things are going that he has deployed a battalion of robots into Atlantis to aid his creation"

This was in refrence to Sgt Beta, it then continues on to state the following on down a couple sentances.

"There are also some bots on independent assignment too"

This does not give any accurate numeric value for the bots on independent assignment, only that there is a Battalion there to support Sgt Beta's actions and then even more there doing their own thing.

That could mean the numbers are between 300 to 1200 total

Yeah, it definat;ly dosn't speak to his production capabilities.

Nether wrote:Holy relax guys.

Here is a source that backs up what I have been saying as I have not 'claimed' any numbers as official here.

SB1, pg 11. wrote:
Furthermore, his superior robot designs and mass production capabilities can beat the
Coalition's any day of the week. The CS (and all people in the Americas) are fortunate
that the indecisive and timid A.I. is hesitant to make his presence known to the world

This statement shows that Archie's production abilities are SUPERIOR to the CS, not by a little, not by a lot, but by a landslide. It also says that not just the CS, but all of the people in the Americas which would be forutnate, so the combined production ability of CS, FQ, NG, Wilks, Bandito, ext would be lucky not to face Archie in this arena.

That is a pretty bold statement to make in the book and I would think it wouldnt have been made unless his production abilities really are that crazy.

Now the citation doesnt give specific numbers, but this clears up the counter points Cornholio brought up about CS production.

Hystix, you are posting in the other thread this was posted, yet you mention nothing of it? It shows me your only agenda.

Awesome. Still the numbers of 400k/month are thrown up with (still) no backing. And the bold is clearly your opinion, and isn't implied by the text in any way. It very well could be close, but Archie can out produce. And again, that may speak more to manufacturing speed. Still dosn't mean he has the reasources to have a huge build up, and even so, said build up is even close to being seen.

All in all, if that's what your proof is, you've got a long way to go.

RedRose wrote:

Hystrix wrote:And the bold is clearly your opinion, and isn't implied by the text in any way.

Actually, yes .. the books hold true, that Archie has vastly superior production
of and higher quality of mass produced bots.

as evidenced here.

SB1r
" Furthermore, his superior robot designes and mass production capabilities can
beat the Coalitions any day of the week. The CS and all the people of the Americas
are fortunate that the indecisisve and timid A.I. is hesitant to make his presence
know to the world"

This CLEARLY show's Archie to have superior mass production to the Coalition.
Literally any day of the week.

How ever we can use the information gleamed off of everything that the Republicans
have mass produced to get an inside look as to at the very lowest levels of production
is for Archie.

As the book (SB1r) clearly stated Archie had no idea they had access to a factory of
his let alone 3. Which brings up several interesting facts.
1- Archie's resources are soo great that a YEAR of mass production for the Repubs
does not warrent enough of a resource drain as to warrent an investigation of whats
going on.

2- 1,321 hrs of lost logged time. 24hrs a day divided by 1,321 hrs = 55 days time.
in increments of less then 7hrs at a time.

in 55 days total time over the course of a year in increments of less then 7hrs at
a time, the Rebuplicans have managed to produce the following.

A- 3,956 various Power Armors.
B- 1,872 Body Armors (which are more high tech then those of the Coalitions)
C- 5,353 weapons (which are again, higher tech then those produced by the CS)

In the course of a year, at increments of 7hr time frames at most, for a total time
of 55 days the Republican's using only a fraction of Archie's factories (factories
7 8 and 9) have equiped themselves with PA's more potent then those of the CS, Body
armors of higher tech then those produced by the CS and weaponry of higher tech then
those of the CS .

All this while Archie's other factories off line. And his other (Cyberwerks)
factories were all pumping out their production runs.

And also while the Factories dedicated to the shemarrian's were producing their lines
of Shemarrian's related bots, gear, weaponry.

All told, I feel with out the slightest misgiving's that Archie as was pointed out
earlier, not only has the capability to out produce the Coalition, but of higher
quality gear, Power armors, weaponry, as well as Everyone else combined on
the North american continent.

If he so chose to do so. Just his Cyberwerks "holdings" are producing on the same
level of mass production as Wilks and Ishpeming. And then you add into that all the
other secret factories he has and has built since.

Leads 1 to believe that yes Archie has the capability to out produce every other
mass production capable power block in north america combined.

Please stop cherry picking.

Also, none of what you mention is evidence of 400,000 bots a month that you keep stating is "canon" yet cannot produce a single quote or page number. You gave hard numbers in another thread, and said it's in the books. Then you give me the run around with this BS, which is more conjecture and your opinion than anything else.

Mack, Slight001, Myself (multiple times) and others have asked for evidence of said production levels, and all we get is the run around. So, prove it, or move on.

Nether wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:That's the thing. It's NOT. The CS really IS protecting humanity. It really IS a power to keep humanity going. It really DOES fight monsters. Now.. the monsters don't see it that way, but the CS humans sure do. YOU are forgetting the 200 years of dark ages where countless monsters of every stripe preyed on the remnants of humanity unchecked. You're acting like they are all just misunderstood people with different colored skin or heads like in Star Trek. In rifts, monsters and such really exist and the CS keeps it's people safe from the REAL ones, and the preceived ones.

The CS just don't take the time to classify "Good alien invaders" and "bad alien invaders". The fact is they really ARE alien invaders and the CS civilians fears them. The CS military protects them. That endears an almost unshakable trust.

I never said that the CS wasn't fighting monsters or doing some good things for humanity. But they are telling the people thru propaganda that they are doing good things for humanity, but they are hiding the facts that they are also slaughtering humans as well that get in the way, as well as tons of bdee villages.

Yeah, but those camps held humans. not 40 foot tall demons, or Neuron beasts, or brodkill, or t-rexes, or 100 other monstrous frightening things that the CS battles and keeps from eating humanity.

Even today, look at how many people won't vote for Obama, simply because he's black. Or how humans kill humans over a you tube video daring to disparage their prophet. Now tell me again after 200+ years of real life monsters of 1000 different kinds have preyed on humanity, how humanity would be just accepting of all the creatures and give them the benefit of the doubt?

The camps i am talking about would have plenty of the lesser dbee's fighting for tolkeen (same kinds living in the CS burbs) as well as humans as well. I haven looked over SoT book in a while but I suspect the CS would just kill the majority of the stuff you just quoted instead of death camping it.

You see the irony in the statement, right?

Nether wrote:

What do you think the CS leadership is doing to the average CS citizen, that they'd be opposed to?

I think the average CS citz would be opposed to genocide, to slaughtering defenseless villages and other dbees that are no threat to the CS,

You're still ignoring the fact that the CS citizens don't see it that way. They see it as fighting monstrous invaders. Not friendly lil girls with pointy ears. Untill you accept the fact that Rifts earth is in actuality, overrun by countless alien and supernatural invaders, you won't get the point. You're acting like the CS goes out to just slaughter things and dance in the blood. It's not like that. They fight demonic hordes and countless monsters. Are some partially "Innocent" Dbees lumped in? yes. They are. It sucks, but after literal 100s of years of predation on humanity by countless monsters, they don't see the point in taking the time to check every one to see if it's nice. Too many losses. Too many times getting burned/killed.

Nether wrote:
the real reasons to why FQ left the CS and eventually allied with Tolkeen against them,

1) The people of Free Quebec are worse than the CS. They don't even accept psychics, or dog boys. (( And with the percentage of humanity that spontaneously shows psionic ability that's pretty drastic. And.. they don't like dogs!?!?? I don't trust um. Even if they have tthe coolest looking armor and PA out there.))

and

2) they didn't ally with Tolkeen against them. Tolkeen TRIED to get them to ally against the CS, and that resulted in FQ turning on them and laying down their lives fighting Demonic invaders, to PROTECT AN ENEMY (at the time) It unified the CS and FQ in ways that hadn't been previously seen.

Nether wrote:

their own human people cut from the same/close empire ext ext, .. the negative points that is listed over and over on these boards that the CS does.

I think you need to read a bit more. They didn't kick FQ out. FQ Left because it wanted to do it's on thing, inspite of CS protection and standard operating procedure.

And again, they're WORSE than the CS when it comes to human supremacy and what not.

Nether wrote:

Tolkeen was a demon loving and monstrous nation that militerized to take on the CS and defeat it. They delt with demons, their generals were evil and they rifted in demonic armies. You're not going to play the poor pitiful card on the CS populace.

Uh what?, No they were not that way initially.

Matters not. King Creed has been building it up that way for 17 years, so the books say. "Oh they wern't like that 2 decades ago" means nothing when they were like that when the war started.

Nether wrote: They were forced into a corner by a warmonger empire threatening to take their land and lives,

Not actually true, if you read the time lines in the book, as soon as Creed took over the transformation started. Far before the CS actually moved their way.

Nether wrote: and they were drastically outgunned by the CS. Choosing to not leave your land and kingdom is not an evil action.

Teaming up with demons and evil beings liek black faries, and neuron beasts, brodkill ect is. The Demonic pacts started close to the start of the militerization of Tolkeen. Again check the time lines. Before the CS ever moved their way for war.

Nether wrote: Tolk made some bad calls along the war timeline but they were originally nothing like how they were at the end of the war.

And I'm nothing like I was 20 years ago either but it matters little if I spent nearly all that time becoming evil today. Yeah. 2 decades past they were different. Then they ran and dove down into evil. It wasn't even gradual. It was a running dive into darkness.

Nether wrote:
Again, even FQ decided to turn on their human brothers who they were a part of for a while because the CS was taking some things too far.

Again you should reread the book. FQ sacrificed themselves to protect the CS from Tolkeens demonic armies.

Nether wrote:
I can say with pretty strong certainty that if Tolk didnt go the demon route and stayed more to the positive forces, they would have retained the cyber knights and FQ would not have felt the demon hoards have changed their ally so much that they had to abandon them.

No. You really can't.

Nether wrote:

Have you turned on the news...... ever? lol

Dude, there is a major difference between todays news story spins and nazi propaganda.

There's propaganda by every nation on earth, and spinning the news. Is it all as bad as "Nazzys!!" no. But some is, some is worse.

Nether wrote:
We have freedom of the press, and they spin it to make the story more exciting.

Or to make ratings, or to lie and make it sound better, or to push forward their station's agenda, ect ect ect.

Nether wrote:
The nazis propaganda spins it to hide the bad chit they are doing from the people en masse

You think the US propaganda doesn't? Again. have you watched the news? (( Not being a smart butt. I'm honestly pointing out, ALL nations do this.))

Nether wrote: and there is no freedom to say what is on your mind. If the CS felt the citz would fully support all their actions they wouldnt need to hide the bad stuff they are doing, as mentioned above.

The CS citizens DO support their actions. The Propaganda is to keep the people happy/proud/dedicated to the cause. They already 'agree'. lol

Nether wrote:

They do use Propaganda. Same as ours does. Same as ----every---- nation has done since Rome where the town criers said what they were told to say. We have instant world wide news today and we still get our news from a few select sources. The CS don't.

I think you are missing the element of severity. A non freedom of the press propaganda government that treats its population as dumb sheep that should just eat what they spoon compared to a freedom of the press nation that spins stories to be more interesting are two different things in my mind.

Again, not trying to be funny, but did you see Romney's speech that was 'outted' the other day. One of the guys running for president, came right out and said... in a MULTI thousand dollar a plate dinner, that he didn't care about the poor half of the country, wasn't going to get their vote so he didn't care about them. Called them victims and that they leeched off society.

He's one of two people running for the highest office in the land, and he thinks most people are just stupid sheep that should just eat what he spoons. Unless you have money, you're not even human to that guy.

Nether wrote:

And i never said the CS populace would all just up and turn against the gov. I was merely pointing out that if the things the CS has been conceiling from its Citz came to light it would cause some unrest.

Some yes. Revolution? Unlikely. Again, the CS keeps it's people safe from the very real threats of Rifts earth.

Nether wrote:
How much unrest? Enough that you would have some resistance groups form, many questions being asked, but not enough that it stops them from functioning.

They have that now though. There's even "Eductation clubs" and stuff out there.

Hystrix wrote:

Nether wrote:Holy relax guys.

Here is a source that backs up what I have been saying as I have not 'claimed' any numbers as official here.

SB1, pg 11. wrote:
Furthermore, his superior robot designs and mass production capabilities can beat the
Coalition's any day of the week. The CS (and all people in the Americas) are fortunate
that the indecisive and timid A.I. is hesitant to make his presence known to the world

This statement shows that Archie's production abilities are SUPERIOR to the CS, not by a little, not by a lot, but by a landslide. It also says that not just the CS, but all of the people in the Americas which would be forutnate, so the combined production ability of CS, FQ, NG, Wilks, Bandito, ext would be lucky not to face Archie in this arena.

That is a pretty bold statement to make in the book and I would think it wouldnt have been made unless his production abilities really are that crazy.

Now the citation doesnt give specific numbers, but this clears up the counter points Cornholio brought up about CS production.

Hystix, you are posting in the other thread this was posted, yet you mention nothing of it? It shows me your only agenda.

Awesome. Still the numbers of 400k/month are thrown up with (still) no backing. And the bold is clearly your opinion, and isn't implied by the text in any way. It very well could be close, but Archie can out produce. And again, that may speak more to manufacturing speed. Still dosn't mean he has the reasources to have a huge build up, and even so, said build up is even close to being seen.

All in all, if that's what your proof is, you've got a long way to go.

No i dont have a long way to go as you seem to think. Read what i have said, nowhere have i claimed numbers. Others on this board might have but I have not!

And no, my comment is in the same manner that the quote is.

By how much is "any day of the week"?
By how much is "a landslide"?

Ya thats what I thought, you cant put quantifiable numbers to it, therefore you cannot disprove the comment. It even goes on to say that all of NA would be concerned if Archie stepped into the light. That doesnt necessarily mean he has superior ability than all combined as it doesnt say that, but it does say he is Significant enough that all in NA would be wary.

Regardless, it does not change the fact of the quote, that Archie's production abilities are superior to the CS. Accept it or be ignorant of that fact, but it is just that, a fact.

Archie has been described in many books as having powerful production abilities, and that he is staying low key and out of the light. If you need canon materiel to come out and say he has x production and y production in order for you to debate this scenario, then there is nothing more for you and I to discuss, as this is an exercise that requires theory, imagination and a fair interpretation of what nation x that doesnt have their own book nor really fleshed out to decide an outcome.

RedRose wrote:

Hystrix wrote:Please stop cherry picking.

So please stop showing where I get the way I think about an showing you guys on the
boards why I think this way ?

Cause, this is exactly what your asking me to do. But I do not understand why ?

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here.

Rose Red wrote:

Hystrix wrote:Also, none of what you mention is evidence of 400,000 bots a month that you keep
stating is "canon" yet cannot produce a single quote or page number. You gave hard
numbers in another thread, and said it's in the books. Then you give me the run
around with this BS, which is more conjecture and your opinion than anything else.

Actually I went off of some one else's post, and as I've said multiple times was
taken aback, when they said archie could produce 400k a month.

I have even asked for verification on this and have since started to comb my own books
to verify if its true or not. And after reading parts of the books I quoted pertinent
parts, and formed my own opinion after that I posted them on here, to which you told
me not to "cherry pick" which I must admit now that I am completetly messed up.

Now I question wether or not you will even accept canon cited material as I posted
just a little bit of it, and your telling me not to cherry pick, which has comepletely
made me as I said all messed up.

I was told on another thread that generally it is encouraged to post your sources when
you make a claim, and now your telling me not to .

I just completely dont understand here. Please explain your rational ?

When I say cherry picking, I mean you quote one line from a post of mine and ignore the rest. I was not saying that your quote from rSB1 was cherry picking. Sorry for the confusion.

OK. I read that you were stating the whole Archie can produce 400k. The earlier statement was just numbers about unrelated production capabilities. I asked where you got the 400k thing that's all.

I see where you are coming from in the earlier post, and yes, Archie can produce some serious machines. My point was that 400k a month is outlandish, and nothing has come up to change my mind on that.

Nether wrote:

Hystrix wrote:

Nether wrote:Holy relax guys.

Here is a source that backs up what I have been saying as I have not 'claimed' any numbers as official here.

SB1, pg 11. wrote:
Furthermore, his superior robot designs and mass production capabilities can beat the
Coalition's any day of the week. The CS (and all people in the Americas) are fortunate
that the indecisive and timid A.I. is hesitant to make his presence known to the world

This statement shows that Archie's production abilities are SUPERIOR to the CS, not by a little, not by a lot, but by a landslide. It also says that not just the CS, but all of the people in the Americas which would be forutnate, so the combined production ability of CS, FQ, NG, Wilks, Bandito, ext would be lucky not to face Archie in this arena.

That is a pretty bold statement to make in the book and I would think it wouldnt have been made unless his production abilities really are that crazy.

Now the citation doesnt give specific numbers, but this clears up the counter points Cornholio brought up about CS production.

Hystix, you are posting in the other thread this was posted, yet you mention nothing of it? It shows me your only agenda.

Awesome. Still the numbers of 400k/month are thrown up with (still) no backing. And the bold is clearly your opinion, and isn't implied by the text in any way. It very well could be close, but Archie can out produce. And again, that may speak more to manufacturing speed. Still dosn't mean he has the reasources to have a huge build up, and even so, said build up is even close to being seen.

All in all, if that's what your proof is, you've got a long way to go.

No i dont have a long way to go as you seem to think. Read what i have said, nowhere have i claimed numbers. Others on this board might have but I have not!

And no, my comment is in the same manner that the quote is.

By how much is "any day of the week"?
By how much is "a landslide"?

Ya thats what I thought, you cant put quantifiable numbers to it, therefore you cannot disprove the comment. It even goes on to say that all of NA would be concerned if Archie stepped into the light. That doesnt necessarily mean he has superior ability than all combined as it doesnt say that, but it does say he is Significant enough that all in NA would be wary.

Regardless, it does not change the fact of the quote, that Archie's production abilities are superior to the CS. Accept it or be ignorant of that fact, but it is just that, a fact.

Archie has been described in many books as having powerful production abilities, and that he is staying low key and out of the light. If you need canon materiel to come out and say he has x production and y production in order for you to debate this scenario, then there is nothing more for you and I to discuss, as this is an exercise that requires theory, imagination and a fair interpretation of what nation x that doesnt have their own book nor really fleshed out to decide an outcome.

Check out the bold. That's my point exactly. I'm asking for proof of the 400k per month thing. Your right, it dosn't prove numbers.

Hystrix wrote:

Nether wrote:

Hystrix wrote:

Nether wrote:Holy relax guys.

Here is a source that backs up what I have been saying as I have not 'claimed' any numbers as official here.

SB1, pg 11. wrote:
Furthermore, his superior robot designs and mass production capabilities can beat the
Coalition's any day of the week. The CS (and all people in the Americas) are fortunate
that the indecisive and timid A.I. is hesitant to make his presence known to the world

This statement shows that Archie's production abilities are SUPERIOR to the CS, not by a little, not by a lot, but by a landslide. It also says that not just the CS, but all of the people in the Americas which would be forutnate, so the combined production ability of CS, FQ, NG, Wilks, Bandito, ext would be lucky not to face Archie in this arena.

That is a pretty bold statement to make in the book and I would think it wouldnt have been made unless his production abilities really are that crazy.

Now the citation doesnt give specific numbers, but this clears up the counter points Cornholio brought up about CS production.

Hystix, you are posting in the other thread this was posted, yet you mention nothing of it? It shows me your only agenda.

Awesome. Still the numbers of 400k/month are thrown up with (still) no backing. And the bold is clearly your opinion, and isn't implied by the text in any way. It very well could be close, but Archie can out produce. And again, that may speak more to manufacturing speed. Still dosn't mean he has the reasources to have a huge build up, and even so, said build up is even close to being seen.

All in all, if that's what your proof is, you've got a long way to go.

No i dont have a long way to go as you seem to think. Read what i have said, nowhere have i claimed numbers. Others on this board might have but I have not!

And no, my comment is in the same manner that the quote is.

By how much is "any day of the week"?
By how much is "a landslide"?

Ya thats what I thought, you cant put quantifiable numbers to it, therefore you cannot disprove the comment. It even goes on to say that all of NA would be concerned if Archie stepped into the light. That doesnt necessarily mean he has superior ability than all combined as it doesnt say that, but it does say he is Significant enough that all in NA would be wary.

Regardless, it does not change the fact of the quote, that Archie's production abilities are superior to the CS. Accept it or be ignorant of that fact, but it is just that, a fact.

Archie has been described in many books as having powerful production abilities, and that he is staying low key and out of the light. If you need canon materiel to come out and say he has x production and y production in order for you to debate this scenario, then there is nothing more for you and I to discuss, as this is an exercise that requires theory, imagination and a fair interpretation of what nation x that doesnt have their own book nor really fleshed out to decide an outcome.

Check out the bold. That's my point exactly. I'm asking for proof of the 400k per month thing. Your right, it dosn't prove numbers.

It does to an extent.
The CS's production of Skelebots, Dogboys and humans is infinite, it is only limited by the amount required to give them victory in any given conflict.
If Arhcie can produce more than the CS, then he is capable of producing at a higher rate than infinity per second. That gives him power parallel to the Cosmic Forge. Could it be that all those in search of the Forge in the Three Galaxies have it wrong and in reality the Forge is an insane A.I. that thinks it was created by man on Earth but has existed there since the dawn of time?

RedRose wrote:

Matters not. King Creed has been building it up that way for 17 years, so the
books say. "Oh they wern't like that 2 decades ago" means nothing when they
were like that when the war started.

Sorry but Your trying to imply Tolkeen was not as portrayed as the books said.
Yes they built up a military, because they knew they would eventually need it. But
no where in any books have I ever heard Tolkeen refrenced as anything other then
a Peaceful place of higher learning.

Build of of military or not, Your portraying something that is not there.

Unless your attempting to say that building up of a military to defend oneself is
an act of war in an of itself, with out ever having attacked anyone other then to
defend its own self.

Are you saying building up of a military is an act of war which other nations
should declare war upon for ?

Not actually true, if you read the time lines in the book, as soon as Creed took
over the transformation started. Far before the CS actually moved their way.

Book/Page to show this please ?

It's in the timeline in SoT 1. It pretty much states that Creed began to build up the military almost the instant he became King. And not so much to defend Tolkeen, but "to teach the CS a lesson that they would never forget."

While there's no argument the CS would have invaded anyway eventually, it was the extreme build up of military forces, along with the stepped up recruitment of demons (circa 100-101, While it's not specifically stated, I believe this is when the Daemonix were brought to Rifts Earth.) that pushed Tolkeen to the top of the list.

Under King Creed, Tolkeen was not an innocent maiden minding her own business and picking flowers by the stream. It was more like Pa Hatfield sitting on the porch with a shotgun, just daring the CS to set foot on his land.

Anyway, that's enough on Tolkeen. This thread is supposed to be about the CS vs. Archie, so I'm bowing out.

Have fun people.

Nether wrote:Holy relax guys.

Here is a source that backs up what I have been saying as I have not 'claimed' any numbers as official here.

SB1, pg 11. wrote:
Furthermore, his superior robot designs and mass production capabilities can beat the
Coalition's any day of the week. The CS (and all people in the Americas) are fortunate
that the indecisive and timid A.I. is hesitant to make his presence known to the world

This statement shows that Archie's production abilities are SUPERIOR to the CS, not by a little, not by a lot, but by a landslide. It also says that not just the CS, but all of the people in the Americas which would be forutnate, so the combined production ability of CS, FQ, NG, Wilks, Bandito, ext would be lucky not to face Archie in this arena.

That is a pretty bold statement to make in the book and I would think it wouldnt have been made unless his production abilities really are that crazy.

Now the citation doesnt give specific numbers, but this clears up the counter points Cornholio brought up about CS production.

Hystix, you are posting in the other thread this was posted, yet you mention nothing of it? It shows me your only agenda.

It only "sort of" clears up the counter-points that I made.

Because while we can all now see an official piece of text that states that, indeed, ARCHIE can out-produce the Coalition on a one-to-one basis......this still doesn't cover how well he'll be able to continue to do so when a force that has his entire, current army outnumbered ten-to-one and more than ten-to-one, is tracking him down in combat, and destroying his production facilities piecemeal with a combined army that outshines his in every way besides the one-to-one fighting capability of his forces (including the fact that ARCHIE doesn't have much if any Heavy Weaponry, Air Support, or Heavy Armor).

cornholioprime wrote:

Nether wrote:Holy relax guys.

Here is a source that backs up what I have been saying as I have not 'claimed' any numbers as official here.

SB1, pg 11. wrote:
Furthermore, his superior robot designs and mass production capabilities can beat the
Coalition's any day of the week. The CS (and all people in the Americas) are fortunate
that the indecisive and timid A.I. is hesitant to make his presence known to the world

This statement shows that Archie's production abilities are SUPERIOR to the CS, not by a little, not by a lot, but by a landslide. It also says that not just the CS, but all of the people in the Americas which would be forutnate, so the combined production ability of CS, FQ, NG, Wilks, Bandito, ext would be lucky not to face Archie in this arena.

That is a pretty bold statement to make in the book and I would think it wouldnt have been made unless his production abilities really are that crazy.

Now the citation doesnt give specific numbers, but this clears up the counter points Cornholio brought up about CS production.

Hystix, you are posting in the other thread this was posted, yet you mention nothing of it? It shows me your only agenda.

It only "sort of" clears up the counter-points that I made.

Because while we can all now see an official piece of text that states that, indeed, ARCHIE can out-produce the Coalition on a one-to-one basis......this still doesn't cover how well he'll be able to continue to do so when a force that has his entire, current army outnumbered ten-to-one and more than ten-to-one, is tracking him down in combat, and destroying his production facilities piecemeal with a combined army that outshines his in every way besides the one-to-one fighting capability of his forces (including the fact that ARCHIE doesn't have much if any Heavy Weaponry, Air Support, or Heavy Armor).

Do you have a quote that says ARCHIE does not have these capabilities or are you using the absence of evidence is evidence of absence argument.

edit: typo ARCHIE