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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:I dont recall trying to intimate that said mage would always be walking around with all sorts of buffs active, but the discussion wasn't about "what happens when you catch a mage flat footed" - it was about how to deal with a mage who had combat buffs active in a fight. In this scenario, both sides have probably had time to prepare ahead of time because they knew combat was coming.

I cant find any reference in the BoM to armor type spells not stacking, either.

Re: the automatic shotgun - something like an AA-12, for instance - it would use the "old" burst rules for automatic SDC weapons.

Honestly, the TX-17 Assault Rifle gets you the same damage for less rounds spent with FAR better range.

While I would normally agree with you, the TX-17 is a fairly uncommon weapon, and almost unavailable in North America. The rotary shotgun, however, is a 6-Barrelled, Belt-Fed Rotary Cannon. It's essentially a large-bore version of the XM-214 that is normally chambered for .556. The AA-12, on the other hand, is a magazine fed (between 8 and 20 rounds) automatic shotgun. The rotary cannon would have a cyclic firing rate of about 1500 rounds per minute. The Auto-Assault 12, and it's variants, have a cyclic firing rate of no more than 500 rounds per minute.
Add in proper, multi-tiered recoil compensation and it becomes useable to people with high strength, and would be immensely popular to borgs, juicers, and any other fans of heavy weaponry. Plus, being chambered for 12 gauge an armourer can load standard shells with just about anything, turning it into a multi-purpose weapons platform.

wyrmraker wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:I dont recall trying to intimate that said mage would always be walking around with all sorts of buffs active, but the discussion wasn't about "what happens when you catch a mage flat footed" - it was about how to deal with a mage who had combat buffs active in a fight. In this scenario, both sides have probably had time to prepare ahead of time because they knew combat was coming.

I cant find any reference in the BoM to armor type spells not stacking, either.

Re: the automatic shotgun - something like an AA-12, for instance - it would use the "old" burst rules for automatic SDC weapons.

Honestly, the TX-17 Assault Rifle gets you the same damage for less rounds spent with FAR better range.

While I would normally agree with you, the TX-17 is a fairly uncommon weapon, and almost unavailable in North America. The rotary shotgun, however, is a 6-Barrelled, Belt-Fed Rotary Cannon. It's essentially a large-bore version of the XM-214 that is normally chambered for .556. The AA-12, on the other hand, is a magazine fed (between 8 and 20 rounds) automatic shotgun. The rotary cannon would have a cyclic firing rate of about 1500 rounds per minute. The Auto-Assault 12, and it's variants, have a cyclic firing rate of no more than 500 rounds per minute.
Add in proper, multi-tiered recoil compensation and it becomes useable to people with high strength, and would be immensely popular to borgs, juicers, and any other fans of heavy weaponry. Plus, being chambered for 12 gauge an armourer can load standard shells with just about anything, turning it into a multi-purpose weapons platform.

My 1187 could be made to fire full-auto with the right tools and a little bit of know how.

Fully automatic shotguns are just as easy to make as any other fully automatic weapon. However, you don't see fully-automatic shotguns get much use for lots of very good reasons:
1. ammo is bulky and heavy
2. less effective range than high power rifle rounds
3. less penetration than high power rifle rounds
4. less accurate than high power rifle rounds
5. less energy than high power rifle rounds

The only reason it makes sense in this case is because the game mechanics have defined the APRJ round as doing 2d6MD while the ramjet rounds for high powered rifles do much less than that. Compare a shotgun slug to a .50 bullet and ask yourself why it makes sense that the RJ version of the slug would do more damage than the RJ version of the .50 bullet...

--flatline

flatline wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:I dont recall trying to intimate that said mage would always be walking around with all sorts of buffs active, but the discussion wasn't about "what happens when you catch a mage flat footed" - it was about how to deal with a mage who had combat buffs active in a fight. In this scenario, both sides have probably had time to prepare ahead of time because they knew combat was coming.

I cant find any reference in the BoM to armor type spells not stacking, either.

Re: the automatic shotgun - something like an AA-12, for instance - it would use the "old" burst rules for automatic SDC weapons.

Honestly, the TX-17 Assault Rifle gets you the same damage for less rounds spent with FAR better range.

While I would normally agree with you, the TX-17 is a fairly uncommon weapon, and almost unavailable in North America. The rotary shotgun, however, is a 6-Barrelled, Belt-Fed Rotary Cannon. It's essentially a large-bore version of the XM-214 that is normally chambered for .556. The AA-12, on the other hand, is a magazine fed (between 8 and 20 rounds) automatic shotgun. The rotary cannon would have a cyclic firing rate of about 1500 rounds per minute. The Auto-Assault 12, and it's variants, have a cyclic firing rate of no more than 500 rounds per minute.
Add in proper, multi-tiered recoil compensation and it becomes useable to people with high strength, and would be immensely popular to borgs, juicers, and any other fans of heavy weaponry. Plus, being chambered for 12 gauge an armourer can load standard shells with just about anything, turning it into a multi-purpose weapons platform.

My 1187 could be made to fire full-auto with the right tools and a little bit of know how.

Fully automatic shotguns are just as easy to make as any other fully automatic weapon. However, you don't see fully-automatic shotguns get much use for lots of very good reasons:
1. ammo is bulky and heavy
2. less effective range than high power rifle rounds
3. less penetration than high power rifle rounds
4. less accurate than high power rifle rounds
5. less energy than high power rifle rounds

The only reason it makes sense in this case is because the game mechanics have defined the APRJ round as doing 2d6MD while the ramjet rounds for high powered rifles do much less than that. Compare a shotgun slug to a .50 bullet and ask yourself why it makes sense that the RJ version of the slug would do more damage than the RJ version of the .50 bullet...

--flatline

All are those points are valid and accurate, from the perspective of a gunsmith. However, since none of the PB material was written from a realistic perspective, it tends to fall short of appropriateness from a physics perspective. And that lacking is truly one of the failings of how things in PB are laid out. Nifty tends to trump sense in the books.
My rotary shotgun was made using the rules as written. If you want to rewrite the rules for guns in Rifts, I would love to see a copy of your revisions.

wyrmraker wrote:12 Gauge Rotary Shotgun
Weight: 67 pounds
Mega-Damage: 2d6 MD per Round
10 Rnd Burst: 2d6x5
30 Rnd Burst: 2d6x10
Magazine: 300 Round Belt
Range: 500 Feet

That is a rough version based in memory. The actual version is written down in one of my notebooks.

That is pretty crazy if you are remembering it accurately.
A 10 gauge 3.5" round in a 10.5 lbs weapon has 62.9 ft. lbs worth of recoil energy. Considering an MD round is a hundred times more powerful, I am going to go out on a limb and assume that it would have at least as much recoil.
You fire 30 round that fast with 62.9 ft.lbs of recoil with each shot and you are directing 1187 ft. lbs worth of energy into your arm in a very short time-span.
For a point of reference, a 963 Horsepower, 2014 Ferrari LaFerrari is capable of producing 664 Ft. lbs worth of Torque. Your shotgun is directing almost twice the power of a Ferrari into your arm joint.
Even MDC beings would lose their limbs trying to use that thing.

wyrmraker wrote:

flatline wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:I dont recall trying to intimate that said mage would always be walking around with all sorts of buffs active, but the discussion wasn't about "what happens when you catch a mage flat footed" - it was about how to deal with a mage who had combat buffs active in a fight. In this scenario, both sides have probably had time to prepare ahead of time because they knew combat was coming.

I cant find any reference in the BoM to armor type spells not stacking, either.

Re: the automatic shotgun - something like an AA-12, for instance - it would use the "old" burst rules for automatic SDC weapons.

Honestly, the TX-17 Assault Rifle gets you the same damage for less rounds spent with FAR better range.

While I would normally agree with you, the TX-17 is a fairly uncommon weapon, and almost unavailable in North America. The rotary shotgun, however, is a 6-Barrelled, Belt-Fed Rotary Cannon. It's essentially a large-bore version of the XM-214 that is normally chambered for .556. The AA-12, on the other hand, is a magazine fed (between 8 and 20 rounds) automatic shotgun. The rotary cannon would have a cyclic firing rate of about 1500 rounds per minute. The Auto-Assault 12, and it's variants, have a cyclic firing rate of no more than 500 rounds per minute.
Add in proper, multi-tiered recoil compensation and it becomes useable to people with high strength, and would be immensely popular to borgs, juicers, and any other fans of heavy weaponry. Plus, being chambered for 12 gauge an armourer can load standard shells with just about anything, turning it into a multi-purpose weapons platform.

My 1187 could be made to fire full-auto with the right tools and a little bit of know how.

Fully automatic shotguns are just as easy to make as any other fully automatic weapon. However, you don't see fully-automatic shotguns get much use for lots of very good reasons:
1. ammo is bulky and heavy
2. less effective range than high power rifle rounds
3. less penetration than high power rifle rounds
4. less accurate than high power rifle rounds
5. less energy than high power rifle rounds

The only reason it makes sense in this case is because the game mechanics have defined the APRJ round as doing 2d6MD while the ramjet rounds for high powered rifles do much less than that. Compare a shotgun slug to a .50 bullet and ask yourself why it makes sense that the RJ version of the slug would do more damage than the RJ version of the .50 bullet...

--flatline

All are those points are valid and accurate, from the perspective of a gunsmith. However, since none of the PB material was written from a realistic perspective, it tends to fall short of appropriateness from a physics perspective. And that lacking is truly one of the failings of how things in PB are laid out. Nifty tends to trump sense in the books.
My rotary shotgun was made using the rules as written. If you want to rewrite the rules for guns in Rifts, I would love to see a copy of your revisions.

I'm not claiming that you've done anything wrong. I just wish details of the setting were more consistent with reason.

As a player, the 12 gauge shotgun (in all its forms) is my favorite firearm because of all the rounds available (even if I have no idea what a Plasma explosive round really is and why it does more damage than the fragmentation round). This assumes the GM's house rules don't vary too far from the book material.

As a GM, my house rules vary tremendously from canon. I've totally done away with MD, so SDC slug throwers are actually useful and common (which makes impervious to energy less useful).

If I ever do a thorough revision of how weapons work (as I've threatened to in the past), I promise I'll post it for everyone to tear apart.

--flatline

Giant2005 wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:12 Gauge Rotary Shotgun
Weight: 67 pounds
Mega-Damage: 2d6 MD per Round
10 Rnd Burst: 2d6x5
30 Rnd Burst: 2d6x10
Magazine: 300 Round Belt
Range: 500 Feet

That is a rough version based in memory. The actual version is written down in one of my notebooks.

That is pretty crazy if you are remembering it accurately.
A 10 gauge 3.5" round in a 10.5 lbs weapon has 62.9 ft. lbs worth of recoil energy. Considering an MD round is a hundred times more powerful, I am going to go out on a limb and assume that it would have at least as much recoil.
You fire 30 round that fast with 62.9 ft.lbs of recoil with each shot and you are directing 1187 ft. lbs worth of energy into your arm in a very short time-span.
For a point of reference, a 963 Horsepower, 2014 Ferrari LaFerrari is capable of producing 664 Ft. lbs worth of Torque. Your shotgun is directing almost twice the power of a Ferrari into your arm joint.
Even MDC beings would lose their limbs trying to use that thing.

These are APRJ rounds, so you only need to experience enough recoil to cycle the weapon and propel the slug out of the barrel where the rocket kicks in.

--flatline

wyrmraker wrote:My rotary shotgun was made using the rules as written.

.. which rules are those, exactly?

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:My rotary shotgun was made using the rules as written.

.. which rules are those, exactly?

Sounds like he's using the original burst/spray rules from the RMB, p. 34.
Which were nerfed back in CB1, then effectively removed in the RGMG.
He left out that the 30 round burst would take up 2 attacks, but he probably figured that was common knowledge.

Going by RUE, his weapon would probably do x2 damage for a 3-round burst (4d6 MD), or x3 damage on a 6-round burst that took up 2 attacks (6d6 MD).
That's being generous, though... RUE 329 states specifically for shotguns, "Each blast counts as one melee attack," including police and military shotguns.

I think that the best by-the-book damage you could do would simply be by having multiple barrels, because they allow double-barrels to fire both barrels at once, usually for x2 damage (APRJ are specifically x2 for both barrels).

Free Quebec's Drummer double-barreled shotgun can fire both barrels at once, and has a drum of 40 rounds.
In theory, you might be able to design a triple-barrel version that can fire all three barrels at once, for 6d6 MD per shot.
Or, potentially, since we're talking about a Juicer, a 5-barrel version that does 1d6x10 MD per quintuple-blast.
That'd be some kick, though!

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:My rotary shotgun was made using the rules as written.

.. which rules are those, exactly?

Sounds like he's using the original burst/spray rules from the RMB, p. 34.
Which were nerfed back in CB1, then effectively removed in the RGMG.
He left out that the 30 round burst would take up 2 attacks, but he probably figured that was common knowledge.

Going by RUE, his weapon would probably do x2 damage for a 3-round burst (4d6 MD), or x3 damage on a 6-round burst that took up 2 attacks (6d6 MD).
That's being generous, though... RUE 329 states specifically for shotguns, "Each blast counts as one melee attack," including police and military shotguns.

I would expect that the RUE burst rules would apply normally to any fully automatic weapon including shotguns.

I think that the best by-the-book damage you could do would simply be by having multiple barrels, because they allow double-barrels to fire both barrels at once, usually for x2 damage (APRJ are specifically x2 for both barrels).

I think it's a little strange that 2 simultaneous shots does x2 damage, but 3 shots fired within a 1/10th of a second also does x2 damage, but I guess I'm cool with it. Makes the heavier guns a little more efficient which is fine.

Free Quebec's Drummer double-barreled shotgun can fire both barrels at once, and has a drum of 40 rounds.
In theory, you might be able to design a triple-barrel version that can fire all three barrels at once, for 6d6 MD per shot.
Or, potentially, since we're talking about a Juicer, a 5-barrel version that does 1d6x10 MD per quintuple-blast.
That'd be some kick, though!

I'm not even certain how you would feed 3 barrels from the same drum. It can be done with 2 barrels easily if you don't mind alternating between barrels. I'm not certain how you'd manage full auto with simultaneous shots, but I'm sure it could be done (probably have increased feed issues, though).

I'm pretty sure that all the full auto or select fire shotguns made today are single barrel since that minimizes weight and feed issues.

--flatline

Johnnycat93 wrote:

flatline wrote:I'm not even certain how you would feed 3 barrels from the same drum. It can be done with 2 barrels easily if you don't mind alternating between barrels. I'm not certain how you'd manage full auto with simultaneous shots, but I'm sure it could be done (probably have increased feed issues, though).

load the first two barrels, then quickly rotate to fill the third?
High speed rotation of all three barrels (gatlind shotgun )?
The feed itself rotates, moving ammo from the drum to the barrels in triangle shaped bundles?
I bet it could be done

Hmm...if you spin the barrels, can you have 3 separate chambers or is it just one chamber used with 3 rotating barrels? If the later, heat would become an issue far sooner. It would suck to have shells cook off in the chamber.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

flatline wrote:I'm not even certain how you would feed 3 barrels from the same drum. It can be done with 2 barrels easily if you don't mind alternating between barrels. I'm not certain how you'd manage full auto with simultaneous shots, but I'm sure it could be done (probably have increased feed issues, though).

load the first two barrels, then quickly rotate to fill the third?
High speed rotation of all three barrels (gatlind shotgun )?
The feed itself rotates, moving ammo from the drum to the barrels in triangle shaped bundles?
I bet it could be done

Hmm...if you spin the barrels, can you have 3 separate chambers or is it just one chamber used with 3 rotating barrels? If the later, heat would become an issue far sooner. It would suck to have shells cook off in the chamber.

--flatline

I'm not even sure how to feed two barrels from the same drum.
For three barrels, maybe get three smaller drums/magazines.

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Going by RUE, his weapon would probably do x2 damage for a 3-round burst (4d6 MD), or x3 damage on a 6-round burst that took up 2 attacks (6d6 MD).
That's being generous, though... RUE 329 states specifically for shotguns, "Each blast counts as one melee attack," including police and military shotguns.

I would expect that the RUE burst rules would apply normally to any fully automatic weapon including shotguns.

Well, that's what you get for expecting things that make sense!

Seriously, though, I'd use the Assault Rifle rules, which would be 3 shots for x2 damage. Whatever the actual rules say.

I think that the best by-the-book damage you could do would simply be by having multiple barrels, because they allow double-barrels to fire both barrels at once, usually for x2 damage (APRJ are specifically x2 for both barrels).

I think it's a little strange that 2 simultaneous shots does x2 damage, but 3 shots fired within a 1/10th of a second also does x2 damage, but I guess I'm cool with it. Makes the heavier guns a little more efficient which is fine.

Yup. It is strange. Maybe they're assuming that if you fire three shots, at least 1-2 will be glancing blows.

I'm pretty sure that all the full auto or select fire shotguns made today are single barrel since that minimizes weight and feed issues.
--flatline

Yeah... they don't have to deal with Palladium's funky physics.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I'm not even sure how to feed two barrels from the same drum.
For three barrels, maybe get three smaller drums/magazines.

i would presume for two barrels, you would feed from different ports on the same drum.

i can think of a couple of arrangements that might make that work (for a given definition of "work") on a triple-barrel shotgun, but i'm pretty sure it's an awful idea (on the basis that if a triple-barrel shotgun was reasonably feasible, it would probably be as common or more common than a double-barrel shotgun).

but anyways, for a double-barrel, you could simply have the drum go up beside both barrels, and load each barrel from the side. so long as you always alternate which barrel fires (when appropriate), you'd use up ammo evenly. of course, this is not significantly different from having two drums that are stuck together.

for a triple barrel... well,depends on how the barrels are arranged. if in a line (which seems like it would be very wide, clumsy, and probably is a bad idea in general as i mentioned above), the middle barrel would probably overheat faster and you'd most likely simply have a third compartment in the drum which feeds from underneath. it would probably be incredibly annoying, and probably wouldn't work very well.

if in a triangle (which still seems like a terrible idea, but at least makes all three barrels heat up equally, and keeps the whole thing from getting ridiculously wide), you'd actually have to have the drum slide down the length of the barrels (or you'd have to open it like a breech-loaded shotgun, slide the drum on around all three, and then shut it). it would probably look kind of odd for what you think of when you imagine a gun, but it might work. again, for a given definition of "work". it would probably also have a number of problems.

that said, i think i'd just stick with the double-barrel drum-fed model. frankly, the second the phrase "triple-barrel shotgun" is uttered, it makes me cringe. i'm inclined to suspect there's a reason they aren't common. if it was a good idea, it would probably be used.

If it's MDC, you don't have to worry about overheating.

Killer Cyborg wrote:If it's MDC, you don't have to worry about overheating.

If it gets hot enough, the rounds start cooking off in the chamber. Don't you want your gun to stop firing when you release the trigger?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:If it's MDC, you don't have to worry about overheating.

If it gets hot enough, the rounds start cooking off in the chamber. Don't you want your gun to stop firing when you release the trigger?

--flatline

Depends.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:If it's MDC, you don't have to worry about overheating.

If it gets hot enough, the rounds start cooking off in the chamber. Don't you want your gun to stop firing when you release the trigger?

--flatline

Depends.

I'll take that as a "usually".

--flatline

Did a search for triple-barrel shotguns, and there are a number of them.
Side-by-side-by-side, and triangle configuration.
I didn't see any that weren't break-open, but I did find this triple-barrel revolver, which has an interesting design.
If there was a way to reload the chambers as the cylinder revolved (in a larger, rifle-type weapon), it might be able to work pretty well.

As for over-heating, there are things you can do to reduce that, from air-cooled systems to water radiators.
It'd add to the bulk of the weapon, but since we're thinking about stuff for juicers, that's not going to matter a whole lot.

I'll do some more looking and thinking, and see what I can come up with.

In the mean time, here is a weapon I came up with recently to try to maximize the firepower of a shotgun, under the current rules, without resorting to 3+ barrels:

BH-44S "Drum Corp" Double-Barreled Shotgun
Inspired by the design of Free Quebec's Q4-44 Double-Barreled Shotgun, this improved version includes a selective fire feature.
Weight: 16 lbs.
Damage: By ammunition type. Can use any standard 12-gauge ammunition manufactured by Bullhunter Arms or other manufacturers. Most popular among mercenaries and adventurers are the Armor Piercing Ramjet Slug (3d6 MD),
Rate Of Fire: Single Shot, Double-Barrel Blast (typically x2 damage, 2 rounds), Short Burst (typically x2 damage, 3 rounds), or Double-Barrel Dual Burst (typically x4 damage, 6 rounds).
Range: 600', or by ammunition type.
Payload: 42 (1 round in each barrel, and a drum of 40 rounds)
Bonuses: Improved balance provides a +1 strike bonus on all attacks.
Cost: CR 4,750

The exact damage for this weapon depends on the rounds being used. Usually, the damage for a dual blast is twice that of a single shot, but in some cases the damage is only 1.5x normal damage. In these cases, the damage for a short burst should, I think, still be double normal, and any area of affect should also be doubled. For a double-barrel dual burst, the area of affect should be x3 normal, due to overlapping areas.
For example, using the MD explosive frag shotgun shells, the damage would be 2d6 MD to a 10' diameter for a single shot, 3d6 MD to a 20' area for a dual blast, 4d6 MD to a 20' area for a short burst, or 8d6 MD to a 30' area for a double-barrel dual burst.
Using explosive plasma rounds, the damage would be 3d6 to a 6' diameter for a single shot, 5d6 MD to a 12' diameter for a dual blast, 6d6 MD to a 12' area for a short burst, and 12d6 MD to a 18' area for a double-barrel dual burst.

On the other hand, for ammunition where a dual-blast is x2 normal damage, the burst damage should be the same, I think.
So when using Armor-Piercing Ramjet Slugs, the damage for one round would be 3d6 MD, the damage for a dual blast would be 6d6 MD, the damage for a short burst would be 6d6 MD, and the damage for a double-barrel dual blast would be 12d6 MD.

As a side note, the low numbers of triple (or more) barrel weapons in our world doesn't necessarily mean that they're that difficult design-wise (though obviously more difficult than single or double-barrel), but simply that there isn't much use for them. With the technology we have today, and have had for a long time now, if you need more than a double-barrel shotgun, you might as well just go for a pump or semi-automatic shotgun.
But in the world of Rifts, the needs of the consumer are going to be different, requiring more firepower than we need for hunting, home defense, or even warfare, in today's world.
And the differences in physics likewise would create different demands, when you're going by-the-book.
In the real world, it would be more practical to simply get a Saiga-12 or other combat-style shotgun, but with Palladium's funky rules for firearms, multiple-barreled weapons would be more effective, if you could get a design right.

Getting back to the primary point that I was making, the fully-automatic rotary shotgun loaded with APRJ rounds, however you want to write it up, would be leave little but devastation in it's wake. Impervious to Energy and Invulnerability would be pretty much pointless against it. This was originally a weapon designed to by used in a squad by either heavy combat cyborgs or a dragon blood juicer, specifically to get around Impervious to Energy as used by adult dragons. This was before FoM's new spells.

And yes, the burst rules in Rifts truly need to make sense, and not merely be something to streamline combat. After all, the JA-11's Ion barrel was originally meant for heavy combat, within the old Burst Fire rules (the Laser and 7.62 barrels were meant for sniping hard and soft targets, respectively). When those rules were revised, the Ion barrel became a single shot weapon. Extraneous and pretty much pointless.

100% with you on the ion beam for the JA11!

With the shotgun, the most you could get from it by today's rules is 4d6 per attack, for a short burst, going by the rules.
And that's ignoring the rule that states shotguns are single shot only.
Otherwise, it would be 4d6 for a dual-blast from a double-barrel of some kind.

So by-the-book, a triax pump weapon would be just as good or better.
Even if you stray from the book a bit, you could probably get a Kalashnikov designed to fire the pump rounds, and dish out 8d6 MD on a short burst.

Killer Cyborg wrote:And that's ignoring the rule that states shotguns are single shot only.

Yes, let us ignore that rule since we know it to be false.

--flatline

wyrmraker wrote:Getting back to the primary point that I was making, the fully-automatic rotary shotgun loaded with APRJ rounds, however you want to write it up, would be leave little but devastation in it's wake. Impervious to Energy and Invulnerability would be pretty much pointless against it. This was originally a weapon designed to by used in a squad by either heavy combat cyborgs or a dragon blood juicer, specifically to get around Impervious to Energy as used by adult dragons. This was before FoM's new spells.

And yes, the burst rules in Rifts truly need to make sense, and not merely be something to streamline combat. After all, the JA-11's Ion barrel was originally meant for heavy combat, within the old Burst Fire rules (the Laser and 7.62 barrels were meant for sniping hard and soft targets, respectively). When those rules were revised, the Ion barrel became a single shot weapon. Extraneous and pretty much pointless.

Targeted deflection would ruin your whole day
So would House of Glass

Faceless Dude wrote:So would House of Glass

House of Glass is like a four letter word to me. Stupid damage shields.

house of glass is a poor choice, as a general rule. it requires that you be damaged for it to work. that is not a good thing. and also that you be within 100 feet.

did i mention that closing distance with a mage is a terrible, terrible idea, and that you shouldn't do it?

if the mage is within range, there are generally better options. for example, mental blast, which deals damage direct to hit points (not SDC), goes right through body armour (and possibly force fields?), and most importantly, does not require that you actually take the damage for it to work. and has a longer range, and inflicts penalties on the target (if the target is alive).

alternately, there's the old stand-by options. magic net forces the target to dodge or be trapped, and can do that to a whole group potentially. whether the spell works or not, it can buy you some time.

i've never really understand the fascination with house of glass, really. i mean, i could see it being interesting to, say, a vampire, or some other creature with ludicrous regeneration. otherwise, stick with not taking damage in the first place.

Juicer

Chainsaw

Shark_Force wrote:house of glass is a poor choice, as a general rule. it requires that you be damaged for it to work. that is not a good thing. and also that you be within 100 feet.

did i mention that closing distance with a mage is a terrible, terrible idea, and that you shouldn't do it?

if the mage is within range, there are generally better options. for example, mental blast, which deals damage direct to hit points (not SDC), goes right through body armour (and possibly force fields?), and most importantly, does not require that you actually take the damage for it to work. and has a longer range, and inflicts penalties on the target (if the target is alive).

alternately, there's the old stand-by options. magic net forces the target to dodge or be trapped, and can do that to a whole group potentially. whether the spell works or not, it can buy you some time.

i've never really understand the fascination with house of glass, really. i mean, i could see it being interesting to, say, a vampire, or some other creature with ludicrous regeneration. otherwise, stick with not taking damage in the first place.

RE House of Glass, I've found that since there's an obvious effect that it's decent deterrence value.

Honestly I'd prefer Targeted Deflection over it. But it will get the job done after a fashion and deserves mentioning.

If you are a natural MDC creature and have a high value (demi-god, asgardian elf, servant of ahriman, splugorth servant etc) House of Glass is scary.

Shark_Force wrote:house of glass is a poor choice, as a general rule. it requires that you be damaged for it to work. that is not a good thing. and also that you be within 100 feet.

did i mention that closing distance with a mage is a terrible, terrible idea, and that you shouldn't do it?

if the mage is within range, there are generally better options. for example, mental blast, which deals damage direct to hit points (not SDC), goes right through body armour (and possibly force fields?), and most importantly, does not require that you actually take the damage for it to work. and has a longer range, and inflicts penalties on the target (if the target is alive).

alternately, there's the old stand-by options. magic net forces the target to dodge or be trapped, and can do that to a whole group potentially. whether the spell works or not, it can buy you some time.

i've never really understand the fascination with house of glass, really. i mean, i could see it being interesting to, say, a vampire, or some other creature with ludicrous regeneration. otherwise, stick with not taking damage in the first place.

House of glass is pretty neat but it is very true if you know you are engaging a magician maintain as much range as possible. Aside from some specific combat magics most spells have a few hundred feet or less for range so the longer away you are less chance of them to do freaky magic stuff to you.

It leads to the odd Rifts thing of men of magic who in most systems are the stand back behind the group nuking people are by the nature of their spells in rifts prompted into melee and pistol range combat. Not a big problem but always struck me as a bit odd.

kaid wrote:House of glass is pretty neat but it is very true if you know you are engaging a magician maintain as much range as possible. Aside from some specific combat magics most spells have a few hundred feet or less for range so the longer away you are less chance of them to do freaky magic stuff to you.

It leads to the odd Rifts thing of men of magic who in most systems are the stand back behind the group nuking people are by the nature of their spells in rifts prompted into melee and pistol range combat. Not a big problem but always struck me as a bit odd.

... because Mages don't use guns.

That's the thing - mages get all sorts of cool magic... and they can use guns and stuff too.

Yes they can use guns but most magic stuff is really short range. Also given their ability to put up renewable force fields easily they are actually more survivable in hand to hand combat than most men at arms it just always struck me as a bit strange.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

kaid wrote:House of glass is pretty neat but it is very true if you know you are engaging a magician maintain as much range as possible. Aside from some specific combat magics most spells have a few hundred feet or less for range so the longer away you are less chance of them to do freaky magic stuff to you.

It leads to the odd Rifts thing of men of magic who in most systems are the stand back behind the group nuking people are by the nature of their spells in rifts prompted into melee and pistol range combat. Not a big problem but always struck me as a bit odd.

... because Mages don't use guns.

That's the thing - mages get all sorts of cool magic... and they can use guns and stuff too.

Indeed. Except for power armor and bionics, they get the same toolbox as everyone else in addition to their spells.

For instance, my mages look just like anyone else who isn't wearing power armor. Unless I decide to pull something flashy off, I'm running for cover and shooting my rifle like everyone else.

--flatline

Well, they can wear power armor, they just can't usually pilot it.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Well, they can wear power armor, they just can't usually pilot it.

"Usually" being the operative word there. My current techno-wizard, who I run as a magical Operator, is saving up for his own Ulti-Max or customized light PA.
And I'm sorry, but a mage armed with a powered armor that has TW enhancements could easily be a very scary proposition. Or the NG-EX10 properly modified with TW.

That's curious, what do mages do to each other when they're impevious etc? Is there a selection of decent damage kinetic-based spells, or do they use solid ammo like most everyone else?

Magic net.

Alrik Vas wrote:That's curious, what do mages do to each other when they're impevious etc? Is there a selection of decent damage kinetic-based spells, or do they use solid ammo like most everyone else?

Again, going back to my techno-wizard, I would use, of all things, a t-shirt cannon. Set it on 'Stadium' and fire it at point-blank range. Wouldn't be much use against Invulnerability or Armor of Ithan, but against regular Impervious to Energy it'll drop them with knockback damage.
Besides, I am a really big fan of solids. And never forget the Big Bore Universal Rifle from the Black Market book.

Alrik Vas wrote:That's curious, what do mages do to each other when they're impevious etc? Is there a selection of decent damage kinetic-based spells, or do they use solid ammo like most everyone else?

Discuss their differences like reasonable people?

TK weapons?

Throwing Stones spell?

--flatline

flatline wrote:Discuss their differences like reasonable people?

--flatline

Good one.

Alrik Vas wrote:That's curious, what do mages do to each other when they're impevious etc? Is there a selection of decent damage kinetic-based spells, or do they use solid ammo like most everyone else?

you mean impervious to energy specifically?

that's not terribly hard. there's plenty of spells that provide non-energy damage. in fact, that "mental blast" spell i mentioned is probably great for the purpose. it probably even passes through force fields, and ignores armour spells completely.

failing that, there are actually plenty of spells that can incapacitate or otherwise deal with an enemy without relying on dealing damage. charm or domination can remove you from the fight entirely. carpet of adhesion and magic net are bad news for spellcasters just like they are for anyone else (especially if combined with, say, wind rush on that carpet of adhesion). orb of cold is not an energy attack afaict in palladium, so works just fine. lesser paralysis can incapacitate a spellcaster fairly effectively (use twice for best results). throwing stones is inexpensive, and lets you deal physical damage. charismatic aura is another excellent example of a method of dealing with an opponent that you cannot damage.

and that's without even going up to level 6+ spells. agony may not kill anyone, but if you give most spellcasters a full minute to do whatever they want, it's bad news for you. barrage deals force damage and should prevent the use of any multi-action spells by your opponent. summoned or mind-controlled minions can deal with an opponent who is immune to energy most of the time, and frost blade provides a melee weapon should such be desired. globe of silence provides a no-save method of shutting down most casters (much like wind rush, this combines very well with carpet of adhesion). mental shock will basically remove an opponent from the fight without dealing damage. neither sonic blast or spinning blades are energy attacks. i could keep going, but by now, it should be fairly obvious that spellcasters (or at least, those that use standard invocations) are not by any means helpless against an opponent that is impervious to energy.

Shark_Force wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:That's curious, what do mages do to each other when they're impevious etc? Is there a selection of decent damage kinetic-based spells, or do they use solid ammo like most everyone else?

you mean impervious to energy specifically?

that's not terribly hard. there's plenty of spells that provide non-energy damage. in fact, that "mental blast" spell i mentioned is probably great for the purpose. it probably even passes through force fields, and ignores armour spells completely.

failing that, there are actually plenty of spells that can incapacitate or otherwise deal with an enemy without relying on dealing damage. charm or domination can remove you from the fight entirely. carpet of adhesion and magic net are bad news for spellcasters just like they are for anyone else (especially if combined with, say, wind rush on that carpet of adhesion). orb of cold is not an energy attack afaict in palladium, so works just fine. lesser paralysis can incapacitate a spellcaster fairly effectively (use twice for best results). throwing stones is inexpensive, and lets you deal physical damage. charismatic aura is another excellent example of a method of dealing with an opponent that you cannot damage.

and that's without even going up to level 6+ spells. agony may not kill anyone, but if you give most spellcasters a full minute to do whatever they want, it's bad news for you. barrage deals force damage and should prevent the use of any multi-action spells by your opponent. summoned or mind-controlled minions can deal with an opponent who is immune to energy most of the time, and frost blade provides a melee weapon should such be desired. globe of silence provides a no-save method of shutting down most casters (much like wind rush, this combines very well with carpet of adhesion). mental shock will basically remove an opponent from the fight without dealing damage. neither sonic blast or spinning blades are energy attacks. i could keep going, but by now, it should be fairly obvious that spellcasters (or at least, those that use standard invocations) are not by any means helpless against an opponent that is impervious to energy.

See, this is why I detest combat. There are way too many ways for someone to ruin your day than you can possibly prepare for ahead of time.

Now that you don't need talisman to cast mental blast in a single action, it's probably my choice offensive spell.

--flatline

Alrik Vas wrote:That's curious, what do mages do to each other when they're impevious etc? Is there a selection of decent damage kinetic-based spells, or do they use solid ammo like most everyone else?

Negate Magic, anti-magic cloud, and sometimes even realm of chaos

All good answers. I'm really not too much up on magic in Rifts to be honest. I tend to beat mages by getting the drop on them flat out, or if engaged already, with an explosive (sometimes literally) amount of offense. So much that they don't react properly.

Suffocate them.

Gryphon wrote:There are also several other heavy weapons that can be used, especially in the Mercenary book line. Burst fire grenade launchers, rapid, burst, or even volley fire missile launchers, the rough equivalent of a grenade sniping rifle, there are quite a few options really, and all would be excessive if we weren't talking about a single individual that can radically change the state of a battlefield in under three seconds.


I had a much longer post more closely related to the above six barreled shotgun, but it grew so long and so not applicable to this thread, I started a new one instead.

I think I have the perfect weapon for defeating both spells. I took my ideas, combined it with your ideas, checked to make sure it was essentially book legal, and this is what I came up with:

Hammer of Vulcan
This weapon is meant to be wielded either by a juicer or cyborg, but it truly comes into it's own when wielded by something like a Dragon Blood Juicer. A mostly man-portable weapon, this rotary cannon's action is based on the action of the Big Bore Universal Rifle. Given that the Universal Rifle can chamber any rifle, Big Bore, shotgun, or Triax pump round, the user can load out entire belts of different round types, depending on the tactical requirements. Do note that different round type and calibers cannot be loaded into the same belt. The action will jam before it has any chance at all of adapting to the new sixe of shell.
With an average cyclic rate of 3000 rounds per minute, it will fire 30 rounds per second, with spin-up of the barrels. The internal spindle of the barrels encompasses a heavy-duty recoil compensation system, and the 18 inch long barrels themselves are tipped with muzzle brakes to ease the recoil and muzzle flip.
The damage involved will depend on the round loaded, but the multiplier is the same, depending on how many rounds fired.

Weight: 67 pounds
Mega-Damage: Varies per Single Round
10 Rnd Burst: Damagex5
30 Rnd Burst: Damage x10
60 Rnd Burst: Damagex20
Magazine: 300 Round Belt
Range: 1500 Feet
Payload: Belt-fed, average belt is 300 rounds

i would change one thing at least in that description...

18 inch barrels makes me think of battleship guns, not man-portable weaponry. i'm guessing you probably meant the barrel *length* as opposed to diameter or anything like that. normally when you just put a measurement for the barrel, it's related to the diameter, and while i've certainly been able to figure out you didn't mean it was shooting battleship guns, it still threw me off at first.

Shark_Force wrote:i would change one thing at least in that description...

18 inch barrels makes me think of battleship guns, not man-portable weaponry. i'm guessing you probably meant the barrel *length* as opposed to diameter or anything like that. normally when you just put a measurement for the barrel, it's related to the diameter, and while i've certainly been able to figure out you didn't mean it was shooting battleship guns, it still threw me off at first.

I fixed it, thanks. And that is pretty darned funny. Six thirty-foot long barrels with a bore at 18 inches, rotating while firing projectiles half a yard across. Heck, pack those things full of explosives, and you have a pretty devastating weapon for taking down... anything. Say, a 50,000 round drum (ship-mounted, of course), firing rate of about 2000 rounds per minute...

Wow.

I just had an idea for a Howitzer Gatling Gun.