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Ninjabunny wrote:Leaving a hugh power vaccum any and every one will try to fill cause World War Rifts

Then the Tundra rangers will come outta hiding and become a CS/Lazlo Hybrid.

Toc Rat wrote:

dark brandon wrote:No, if anything magic is too strong.

Right, that's why the CS always wins when fighting magic users.

Who says they always win?

Semisonic9 wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Toc Rat wrote:Right, that's why the CS always wins when fighting magic users.

Who says they always win?

Maybe not all the battles, but certainly all the wars.

~Semi

Either way it isn't relevant. Such victories are decided by KS alone - the merits of magic Vs technology aren't considered. If they were considered like they would have to be, for canon victories to be relevant, then that would equate to KS saying that magic was sub-par in comparison to tech. That is something he has refuted many times.

Ninjabunny wrote:Example MYSTIC KNIGHTS, they are backily immune to laser and energy weapons. Battle Magus, if a Thouse two are weak then I'm the queen of england.

Hail to the Queen!.

Semisonic9 wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Toc Rat wrote:Right, that's why the CS always wins when fighting magic users.

Who says they always win?

Maybe not all the battles, but certainly all the wars.

~Semi

Yep. All the wars. All 1 of them. Yep. definative proof.

From the very beginning we knew tolkeen was gonna fall from RMB, Erin tarn is quoted as saying so. We also know what won CS the war wasn't tech alone it was mainly numbers and trained leadership. Even in the SoT books we get that tolkeen had a much smaller force and yet was able to be very devistating to the CS and hold them off a number of times. Saying that because CS won the war because they use tech is ignoring all the other reasons it is suggested they won.

Also, suggesting Tolkeen should have won because they have magic is ignoring many other things that make a war. I think SoT showed that magic (Failed to do so) is powerful and potent, but not limitless.

dark brandon wrote:[

Yep. All the wars. All 1 of them. Yep. definative proof.

Check again, you are forgetting the CS Vs FoM war, you know, the one that started it all? Or so the CS claims.

Then there is the openly declared war the CS has against any and all magic users. Oh and the war on all non-humans...and humans that aren't under the boot of Prosek...

Yup, the CS has only ever conducted one war. It is the CS Vs everyone else in the world because sooner or later they will come in to conflict with everyone, regardless of race or magic using status. The Proseks want to rule the world, even boast about how they will someday.

Toc Rat wrote:

dark brandon wrote:[

Yep. All the wars. All 1 of them. Yep. definative proof.

Check again, you are forgetting the CS Vs FoM war, you know, the one that started it all? Or so the CS claims.

Then there is the openly declared war the CS has against any and all magic users. Oh and the war on all non-humans...and humans that aren't under the boot of Prosek...

Yup, the CS has only ever conducted one war. It is the CS Vs everyone else in the world because sooner or later they will come in to conflict with everyone, regardless of race or magic using status. The Proseks want to rule the world, even boast about how they will someday.

And by the power of KS it will be so!

Ninjabunny wrote:Example MYSTIC KNIGHTS, they are backily immune to laser and energy weapons. Battle Magus, if a Thouse two are weak then I'm the queen of england.

I think the mystic Knight is horribly overrated (can't argue about the Battle Magus though - those things are munchkin!).
Being immune to Energy is pretty much useless for a SDC being, it is still too risky to run around without armor on because of the many things that can still kill them with a quick glance and their energy immunity doesn't apply to their armor - if I were playing a mystic knight smartly, the energy immunity would never come into play.

Toc Rat wrote:

dark brandon wrote:[

Yep. All the wars. All 1 of them. Yep. definative proof.

Check again, you are forgetting the CS Vs FoM war, you know, the one that started it all? Or so the CS claims.

No, not forgetting, but re-read the section of the first war. CS has magic power as well as help from cyber-knights, glitterboys and a host of other "good" people. The original wasn't a Tech vs Magic war, it was a combination of the both.

Then there is the openly declared war the CS has against any and all magic users. Oh and the war on all non-humans...and humans that aren't under the boot of Prosek...

Yup, the CS has only ever conducted one war. It is the CS Vs everyone else in the world because sooner or later they will come in to conflict with everyone, regardless of race or magic using status. The Proseks want to rule the world, even boast about how they will someday.

There has only been maybe two maybe 3 wars (if you count the Quebec war separate from Sot). CS war on non-humans isn't won yet, and in battle CS probably loses as much as it wins.

The comment I replied to was that CS wins every war. Theyve one One war using tech and psionics. The original war (CS vs. FOM) was back when CS still had the vanguard (thus was tech, psionics and magic vs. magic). So yes, Tech beats magic all the time as CS has won all the wars (all 1 of them).

dark brandon wrote:[
The comment I replied to was that CS wins every war. Theyve one One war using tech and psionics. The original war (CS vs. FOM) was back when CS still had the vanguard (thus was tech, psionics and magic vs. magic). So yes, Tech beats magic all the time as CS has won all the wars (all 1 of them).

Yes, the comment you replied to was about the CS wins all its wars against magic using nations. That makes at least two, the war on the FoM and the SoT. By my math that makes 2, not 1. The presence of the Chi-town magic division at the begining of the FoM war is irrelevant, the only fact that matters is that the CS won.

Toc Rat wrote:

dark brandon wrote:[
The comment I replied to was that CS wins every war. Theyve one One war using tech and psionics. The original war (CS vs. FOM) was back when CS still had the vanguard (thus was tech, psionics and magic vs. magic). So yes, Tech beats magic all the time as CS has won all the wars (all 1 of them).

Yes, the comment you replied to was about the CS wins all its wars against magic using nations. That makes at least two, the war on the FoM and the SoT. By my math that makes 2, not 1. The presence of the Chi-town magic division at the begining of the FoM war is irrelevant, the only fact that matters is that the CS won.

Ok, I was assuming you ment CS as solely a tech nation. If you mean CS (Current and past forms since the past cs just before and during the first FoM war was much different than the current cs) then yes, CS has won all wars it's ever been in. All 2 of them.

Rifts Magic isn't weak, it's just clunky as all hell. There needs to be a logical system to damage ratings for spells of different levels. Unlike Dungeons and Dragons, where a mage can't cast a certain spell until X level, Rifts spell slingers can cast whatever spell they want as long as they spent the cash to learn it. That means that the spell has to have a minimum effect that would be suitable for the level of power. "Fireball" is one example where the spell isn't designed very well. while I can't list the stats here on the board, the damage rating is incredibly low for a 6th level spell, even IF it hardly misses. In Rifts, I would propose that a spell of X level deals at least X die in damage, with bonus damage only coming into play once the magus has reached and passed the spells level of power. The only time this doesn't come into play is when the spell has an additional effect that might make it more potent then a strait damage spell. Like if a spell deals damage and roots it's target into place, that spell might do less damage then the spell level would otherwise indicate.

Yeah, I'm a D&D player as well as a Rifts player so making sure everything evens out for cost is something I do a lot.

Oddly, some of the spells seem like they were just cut and pasted out of the elemental spell list without any thoughts as to how powerful or well worked they would be in a invocation spell list. For a Fire warlock Fireball is perfectly balanced since they can't learn it until at least 6th level, where it would deal decent damage thanks to the player level.

There is a logic to the spell list, circa 1996.

Roughly, a spell does 1D6 per level of the spell, at about 50' per level of the spell, until 6th level, when it switches to 1D6 per level of the caster, with the range staying about the same, for between 2-3 PPE per level. You can see this pretty clearly if you read PFRPG 2nd edition; Fireball is a HUGE anomaly in this, being short-ranged, shorted damage, and only really getting a lower cost. Warlock spells are half the level of wizard spells, give or take one.

With Federation of Magic's expansion of the spell list, this fell apart; spells were upgraded to do more damage, at greater ranges.