Tolkeen - Evil?

[camk4evr]

I can't speak for others, but the Evacuation, and relocation plans I've put forth don't need teleportation of masses of people to work. Boiled totally down to just bare bones.

1) Scout an area well out of CS reach.
2) Secure and fortify (Militarily) the area.
3) Start pilgramages from Tolkeen. Starting with those able to build the infrastructure. The enginers, construction people. Those with magic to make this easier (( Elemental magic, stone magic, nature magic, ect) All the millions and millions spent on mercs can be spent to secure the pilgramages. Mercs to defend them, along with their own magical capibilities. ((Dragons are great for this, with supernatural strength they can carry huge loads. Most can fly. They're magical and provide teleportation of FORCE multipliers. Ect))
4) When the first pilgramages get there, they start using their abilities and knowledge to build up the 'New city" with in the new area as per pre planed design. Naturally this would be to get power sources on line. Water. Then other infrastructure. It would be designed from the ground up to be defendable by the military already present and in case, in the future if threats come, to put the most important things in places where they can be defended but wouldn't hurt civilians if hit.
5) Keep up the pilgramages. As the city is being built, more can move into place, which gives more ability to build and advance the city.
6) Keep the defenses of "Old"Tolkeen manned.
7) when you've gotten 3/5s to 3/4ths of the people moved, you move the 'stuff' be it the books in the library, or the artifacts. The "Stuff" that you can't just build in the new area. If you're keeping the location 100% secret. (( hard to do.)) you do this via magic or at least aided with by magic. If not, the Black Market excells in this. (( So the new book tells you REPEATEDLY. lol ))
in the end, you're left with the city being maned by a defense force and skeleton crew. At this point you would probably want to rig it to destruct. To keep your 'secrets' out of the CS hands. All that power pumped through the pyramids and stuff can be set to overload or whatever.
9) Then.. poof. the last defense forces pull out. The city goes 'boom' and hopefully you've done so in a way that makes it look like they had some sort of magical accident and nuked themselves with thier own naughty naughty magic. (( The destruction of 'old Tolkeen' prevents it's usage by hostile forces. Be it demons or the CS it self or folks from the Fed or some huge merc army. ect.))

It's a good plan PJ and it would have worked. There's just a few issues with it:

1) They had four years to implement it (according to thr RMB, the CS had only started sending troops on recon and S&D missions into Minnesota in 101 PA and the war started in 105 PA according to SOT1). Less than that really as the council (or whatever it was that governed Tolkeen) would need time to debate the evacuation and then they'd have to convince the populous.

Tolkeen has known the CS was coming for years. There was a full decade of Military build up -after- the decision to fight instead of run was made. If you used those years to run, you'd have plenty of time before the CS came down on ya.

I don't like to ask this because I think it's kind of a ****ish thing to do but where does it say that they had a full decade of military build up? I don't remember seeing in the books (admittedly, it might be in one I don't have).

At any rate, it's only human nature to fight for what's yours from an invader so it's not surprising that they chose to fight (esp. since they supposedly had a great defensive position with the ley lines and nexii which I don't remember them ever using (I swear they fought the war like a bunch of rocks)) instead of an evacuation that could take longer if they aren't lucky enough to find a suitable location in less than a year.

2) They had allies (or, at least, reasonbly friendly nations who they expected would ally with them, or both) until just before the war, so they had reason to believe that they wouldn't be facing the CS alone and therefore it's likely they wouldn't have seen the need to come up with an evacuation plan.

They had allies till it got out how evil they'd become. Even during the war allies like HALF the Cyberknights were on their side (( even with TOLKEEN forces killing and eating them)) The prroblem was from the ---start---- all of Tolkeens allies agreed on one thing. "You can NOT WIN. You should RUN". Not one but TWO of the magical "powers" agreed that ALL of the magical powers united would ----ALL DIE--- if they teamed up. It wasn't like they sat around waffeling. They looked at it and went "Hey Tolkeen even if you, and us, and everyone teamed up. We'd all die. It'd take longer but we'd all die..so we're not teamin' up. You need to get out of dodge!" Where in the now evil tolkeen's reply was 'Frak you guys. We'll do it on our own! You'll see!!!!"

True. Problem was it wasn't until 104 or 105 PA that they told Tolkeen they were on their own (except for Dunscon's FOM who waited until after the shooting started).

3) the CS was at war with Free Quebec and while Quebec would (likely) eventually be defeated, the war would have seriously weakened the Coalition enough that it would be years before they could threaten Tolkeen. Besides, only a fool would start a war with someone when thet're already fighting another war.

...... Isn't that what happened? The CS had a (( pretty minor to be honest)) War with FQ. They were "at war" but the CS wasn't full out balls to the wall with it. It wasn't full scaled overwhelming invasion. The navy really traded blows, but the war wasn't that.... I don't want to sound like I'm minimizing it.. but the CS wasn't "All in" in the FQ war. They WERE having a war in two places till the now evil Tolkeen sent armies of demons to kill CS troops with a wink and a nod to FQ, kinda "Hey you're at war, we're gonna help you out and kill some CS with this army of Demons. You can watch" and FQ went "Army of demons?? Against humans? No.. That's my Big brother! NOONE PICKS ON HIM BUT ME!! You wanna use Demons against humans, you gotta go through US FIRST Mother fraker!" and it was that act which caused a pretty gigantic thing from the CS. When they saw FQ laying down their lives to protect fellow humans from monsters and demons, Karl, the Diabolic leader of the CS, totally took responsibility for the war with FQ. Said he was WRONG. Apologized, and pledged support and friend ship and recognized FQ's sovereignty. That was/is a -----huge----- thing for the CS to have done. Admit it was wrong??? The Emp taking personal responsibility??? Even his advisers were blown away. Apologize publicly!?!?!? Whoo. That was a bigger thing for the CS than beating Tolkeen. -----------------Everyone------------------ except tolkeen it self knew the CS would win in the war against tolkeen. Everyone. ---NOONE--- Thought the CS/Emp Karl would ----EEEEVER----- Admit wrong doing and apoligise for ------ANYTHING-----.

And? Seriously, I'm not trying to be facetious or insulting but it has nothing to do with what Tolkeen and others perceived at the beginning of the war in 105 PA as opposed to what we know, now, after reading the SOT series. Besides, even if the CS wasn't 'All In' in the war it was still drawing off resources from the front at Tolkeen and, apparently, stretching their forces thin (according to either Free Quebec or CWC, or maybe SOT 1, I forget which of 'em).

[Pepsi Jedi]

I can't speak for others, but the Evacuation, and relocation plans I've put forth don't need teleportation of masses of people to work. Boiled totally down to just bare bones.

1) Scout an area well out of CS reach.
2) Secure and fortify (Militarily) the area.
3) Start pilgramages from Tolkeen. Starting with those able to build the infrastructure. The enginers, construction people. Those with magic to make this easier (( Elemental magic, stone magic, nature magic, ect) All the millions and millions spent on mercs can be spent to secure the pilgramages. Mercs to defend them, along with their own magical capibilities. ((Dragons are great for this, with supernatural strength they can carry huge loads. Most can fly. They're magical and provide teleportation of FORCE multipliers. Ect))
4) When the first pilgramages get there, they start using their abilities and knowledge to build up the 'New city" with in the new area as per pre planed design. Naturally this would be to get power sources on line. Water. Then other infrastructure. It would be designed from the ground up to be defendable by the military already present and in case, in the future if threats come, to put the most important things in places where they can be defended but wouldn't hurt civilians if hit.
5) Keep up the pilgramages. As the city is being built, more can move into place, which gives more ability to build and advance the city.
6) Keep the defenses of "Old"Tolkeen manned.
7) when you've gotten 3/5s to 3/4ths of the people moved, you move the 'stuff' be it the books in the library, or the artifacts. The "Stuff" that you can't just build in the new area. If you're keeping the location 100% secret. (( hard to do.)) you do this via magic or at least aided with by magic. If not, the Black Market excells in this. (( So the new book tells you REPEATEDLY. lol ))
in the end, you're left with the city being maned by a defense force and skeleton crew. At this point you would probably want to rig it to destruct. To keep your 'secrets' out of the CS hands. All that power pumped through the pyramids and stuff can be set to overload or whatever.
9) Then.. poof. the last defense forces pull out. The city goes 'boom' and hopefully you've done so in a way that makes it look like they had some sort of magical accident and nuked themselves with thier own naughty naughty magic. (( The destruction of 'old Tolkeen' prevents it's usage by hostile forces. Be it demons or the CS it self or folks from the Fed or some huge merc army. ect.))

It's a good plan PJ and it would have worked. There's just a few issues with it:

1) They had four years to implement it (according to thr RMB, the CS had only started sending troops on recon and S&D missions into Minnesota in 101 PA and the war started in 105 PA according to SOT1). Less than that really as the council (or whatever it was that governed Tolkeen) would need time to debate the evacuation and then they'd have to convince the populous.

Tolkeen has known the CS was coming for years. There was a full decade of Military build up -after- the decision to fight instead of run was made. If you used those years to run, you'd have plenty of time before the CS came down on ya.

I don't like to ask this because I think it's kind of a d**kish thing to do but where does it say that they had a full decade of military build up? I don't remember seeing in the books (admittedly, it might be in one I don't have).

There's multiple places where it's shown. Most recently someone else in this thread has pointed out that it was stated the military build up started in 88 PA or so when Creed took over. The war didn't start till 104/105 PA. Pages 102 & 103 Siege on Tolkeen one.

"In the end, facing increased Coalition Aggression they opted for a strong, militant leader and appointed Robert Creed as King of the Realm. He would make tolkeen a nation and fighting force worthy of recognition and he would teach the coalition the meaning of fear. This, he said, was only the beginning.
As Creed consolidated his power with in Tolkeen, he began pushing the kingdom into a more war ready stated.. he ordered much of Tolkeens industry to produce military items and he began training and recruuiting practitioners of magic of all kinds and teaching them to work in a coordinated tea min the defense of the kingdom. Before long, Tolkeen would have the means of meeting the coalition head on in battle and then it woudl be THEIR turn to suffer, just as the sorcerers of this land had suffered under the coalition boot for so long."

There you go. In straight black and white, Creed started the military build up in 88 PA. The war didn't start till 105 PA. So he built up the military for 17 years before the war started. In the same book you can find Erin Tarn coming to him in 105 PA and pointing out he STILL had time to run. That he could move his people into canada or west before the CS could stop him. Creed had himself a lill hissy fit and yelled at her that he wouldn't do it. He wanted the fight.

Small note for those that like to say the demons came later. Page 103, says Creed was making deals with demonic beings as of or prior to 100 PA.

At any rate, it's only human nature to fight for what's yours from an invader so it's not surprising that they chose to fight (esp. since they supposedly had a great defensive position with the ley lines and nexii

It's animal nature to defend your den yes. Humans can think. When --------Everyone--------- Tells you "Hey man, We understand where you're coming from, but if you ffight, you're all going to die. Run. Get out of the way. Live" and you go "Screw it. I'm gonna stay and fight" Well it's your choice, but when you die, it's your fault. Creed had gone dark side. he wanted revenge and slaughter. He made the choice and militerized his 'peaceful nation' and threw them willingly into the jaws of war, and as ---everyone--- told him, was consumed by it and his nation died.

which I don't remember them ever using (I swear they fought the war like a bunch of rocks)) instead of an evacuation that could take longer if they aren't lucky enough to find a suitable location in less than a year.

Then you haven't really read the books. The biggest hand of god moment since Rifts started was tolkeen using their laylines and rift missile detector to totally HAND WAVE flights of nuclear missiles. "Nukes? oh.. we have this new secret magical defense mini rift maker.. You know like the Yuzong Vong out of Star Wars, we're gonna open a mini rift infront of the missiles and suck them into another dimension so the war will last more than the 'flight time' of the missiles from the CS to Tolkeen"

lol. They used the laylines and nexus quite a bit. There's huge sections of the war books talking about it. I will agree BOTH SIDES fought pretty stupidly, but that stuff wass used.

2) They had allies (or, at least, reasonbly friendly nations who they expected would ally with them, or both) until just before the war, so they had reason to believe that they wouldn't be facing the CS alone and therefore it's likely they wouldn't have seen the need to come up with an evacuation plan.

They had allies till it got out how evil they'd become. Even during the war allies like HALF the Cyberknights were on their side (( even with TOLKEEN forces killing and eating them)) The prroblem was from the ---start---- all of Tolkeens allies agreed on one thing. "You can NOT WIN. You should RUN". Not one but TWO of the magical "powers" agreed that ALL of the magical powers united would ----ALL DIE--- if they teamed up. It wasn't like they sat around waffeling. They looked at it and went "Hey Tolkeen even if you, and us, and everyone teamed up. We'd all die. It'd take longer but we'd all die..so we're not teamin' up. You need to get out of dodge!" Where in the now evil tolkeen's reply was 'Frak you guys. We'll do it on our own! You'll see!!!!"

True. Problem was it wasn't until 104 or 105 PA that they told Tolkeen they were on their own (except for Dunscon's FOM who waited until after the shooting started).

But that's not how the books portrayed it. It's portrayed as tolkeen had reached out for aid during their build up and they were told it'd be suicide so no. You need to move. Erin Tarn's goign to creed on the 'eve' of war was her trying again to turn him from the path that would have his entire kingdom killed. And even then she states he had time to get his people out. Told him. Get your people out. let the CS destroy the buildings. Let them claim victory. Your people would live. Creed had a hissy and threw her out. He -choose- the war.

[

3) the CS was at war with Free Quebec and while Quebec would (likely) eventually be defeated, the war would have seriously weakened the Coalition enough that it would be years before they could threaten Tolkeen. Besides, only a fool would start a war with someone when thet're already fighting another war.

...... Isn't that what happened? The CS had a (( pretty minor to be honest)) War with FQ. They were "at war" but the CS wasn't full out balls to the wall with it. It wasn't full scaled overwhelming invasion. The navy really traded blows, but the war wasn't that.... I don't want to sound like I'm minimizing it.. but the CS wasn't "All in" in the FQ war. They WERE having a war in two places till the now evil Tolkeen sent armies of demons to kill CS troops with a wink and a nod to FQ, kinda "Hey you're at war, we're gonna help you out and kill some CS with this army of Demons. You can watch" and FQ went "Army of demons?? Against humans? No.. That's my Big brother! NOONE PICKS ON HIM BUT ME!! You wanna use Demons against humans, you gotta go through US FIRST Mother fraker!" and it was that act which caused a pretty gigantic thing from the CS. When they saw FQ laying down their lives to protect fellow humans from monsters and demons, Karl, the Diabolic leader of the CS, totally took responsibility for the war with FQ. Said he was WRONG. Apologized, and pledged support and friend ship and recognized FQ's sovereignty. That was/is a -----huge----- thing for the CS to have done. Admit it was wrong??? The Emp taking personal responsibility??? Even his advisers were blown away. Apologize publicly!?!?!? Whoo. That was a bigger thing for the CS than beating Tolkeen. -----------------Everyone------------------ except tolkeen it self knew the CS would win in the war against tolkeen. Everyone. ---NOONE--- Thought the CS/Emp Karl would ----EEEEVER----- Admit wrong doing and apoligise for ------ANYTHING-----.

And? Seriously, I'm not trying to be facetious or insulting but it has nothing to do with what Tolkeen and others perceived at the beginning of the war in 105 PA as opposed to what we know, now, after reading the SOT series. Besides, even if the CS wasn't 'All In' in the war it was still drawing off resources from the front at Tolkeen and, apparently, stretching their forces thin (according to either Free Quebec or CWC, or maybe SOT 1, I forget which of 'em).

Not really. They were taking forces off the lines of FQ to put them into tolkeen. My point was that while they were quote 'At war' with FQ. Their heart wasn't in it. It was a minor action that they wern't really pushing for. You can hand wave off the hugeness of the CS Turning around and apoligising for it all and befriending FQ if you want, but as I pointed out it was a much bigger thing for them to do, than defeat Tolkeen which was a "Done deal" before the first laser or spell was fired down range.

[SAMASzero]

There's multiple places where it's shown. Most recently someone else in this thread has pointed out that it was stated the military build up started in 88 PA or so when Creed took over. The war didn't start till 104/105 PA. Pages 102 & 103 Siege on Tolkeen one.

"In the end, facing increased Coalition Aggression they opted for a strong, militant leader and appointed Robert Creed as King of the Realm. He would make tolkeen a nation and fighting force worthy of recognition and he would teach the coalition the meaning of fear. This, he said, was only the beginning.
As Creed consolidated his power with in Tolkeen, he began pushing the kingdom into a more war ready stated.. he ordered much of Tolkeens industry to produce military items and he began training and recruuiting practitioners of magic of all kinds and teaching them to work in a coordinated tea min the defense of the kingdom. Before long, Tolkeen would have the means of meeting the coalition head on in battle and then it woudl be THEIR turn to suffer, just as the sorcerers of this land had suffered under the coalition boot for so long."

There you go. In straight black and white, Creed started the military build up in 88 PA. The war didn't start till 105 PA. So he built up the military for 17 years before the war started. In the same book you can find Erin Tarn coming to him in 105 PA and pointing out he STILL had time to run. That he could move his people into canada or west before the CS could stop him. Creed had himself a lill hissy fit and yelled at her that he wouldn't do it. He wanted the fight.

Small note for those that like to say the demons came later. Page 103, says Creed was making deals with demonic beings as of or prior to 100 PA.

Arguably Tolkeen had more time than that. They'd been trying to send peaceful envoys to the CS for decades, since the Bloody Campaign (the FoM one, not the NGR one). It was somewhere between 60 and 70 P.A. that Tolkeen finally came to the conclusion that the CS would always be their enemy. So that's about another 18 years of knowing that the CS is a hostile force, and 28 years since Chairman Prosek pulled a Palpatine. And mind you, it's been growing ever since the Bloody Campaign.

Now mind you, I think a lot of what Creed does here was wrong (especially the Daemonix), but let's not kid ourselves that the CS would not have attacked if he hadn't. Chi-Town had already been assuming Tolkeen was doing that sort of thing since at least 20 P.A.

But remember, Tolkeen was making preparations to defend themselves, not to attack the Coalition. The only reason "Get the *BLEEP* Out of There" was espoused by Tolkeen's allies was because they figured Tolkeen couldn't win, not even with their help.

At any rate, it's only human nature to fight for what's yours from an invader so it's not surprising that they chose to fight (esp. since they supposedly had a great defensive position with the ley lines and nexii

It's animal nature to defend your den yes. Humans can think. When --------Everyone--------- Tells you "Hey man, We understand where you're coming from, but if you ffight, you're all going to die. Run. Get out of the way. Live" and you go "Screw it. I'm gonna stay and fight" Well it's your choice, but when you die, it's your fault. Creed had gone dark side. he wanted revenge and slaughter. He made the choice and militerized his 'peaceful nation' and threw them willingly into the jaws of war, and as ---everyone--- told him, was consumed by it and his nation died.

It was a bad decision, but I understand why he made it.

Think about it, the CS and Tolkeen had pretty much been in a Cold War, and without all the proxy wars and BS the United States and Soviet Union pulled on each other. Now most of us may not have lived though the Cold War years (or at least very many of them) but consider how a lot of media (movies, comic books, etc...) in the 50's-80's often painted the Soviets as unequivocal Bad Guys (I mean,"Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1959 specifically to show we were "Better" than the "Godless Commies"). If you've seen the movie "Red Dawn", that's pretty much exactly how most Tolkeenites saw the CS invasion. (Hell, in many places, that's exactly how the invasion went). From a pure emotional standpoint, the CS was the Boogeyman that the Humans (and D-Bees with human-like lifespans) of Tolkeen had been taught to fear (and in many cases hate, I'm sure) all their lives. A dark shadow over the horizon that hates you just for existing.

So yeah, while there are also other factors, I can see why Tolkeen wanted to stand their ground from that alone.

which I don't remember them ever using (I swear they fought the war like a bunch of rocks)) instead of an evacuation that could take longer if they aren't lucky enough to find a suitable location in less than a year.

Then you haven't really read the books. The biggest hand of god moment since Rifts started was tolkeen using their laylines and rift missile detector to totally HAND WAVE flights of nuclear missiles. "Nukes? oh.. we have this new secret magical defense mini rift maker.. You know like the Yuzong Vong out of Star Wars, we're gonna open a mini rift infront of the missiles and suck them into another dimension so the war will last more than the 'flight time' of the missiles from the CS to Tolkeen"

See, right there you explained why it had to happen, pretty much since Mercenaries came out.

2) They had allies (or, at least, reasonbly friendly nations who they expected would ally with them, or both) until just before the war, so they had reason to believe that they wouldn't be facing the CS alone and therefore it's likely they wouldn't have seen the need to come up with an evacuation plan.

They had allies till it got out how evil they'd become. Even during the war allies like HALF the Cyberknights were on their side (( even with TOLKEEN forces killing and eating them)) The prroblem was from the ---start---- all of Tolkeens allies agreed on one thing. "You can NOT WIN. You should RUN". Not one but TWO of the magical "powers" agreed that ALL of the magical powers united would ----ALL DIE--- if they teamed up. It wasn't like they sat around waffeling. They looked at it and went "Hey Tolkeen even if you, and us, and everyone teamed up. We'd all die. It'd take longer but we'd all die..so we're not teamin' up. You need to get out of dodge!" Where in the now evil tolkeen's reply was 'Frak you guys. We'll do it on our own! You'll see!!!!"

True. Problem was it wasn't until 104 or 105 PA that they told Tolkeen they were on their own (except for Dunscon's FOM who waited until after the shooting started). [/quote]

But that's not how the books portrayed it. It's portrayed as tolkeen had reached out for aid during their build up and they were told it'd be suicide so no. You need to move. Erin Tarn's goign to creed on the 'eve' of war was her trying again to turn him from the path that would have his entire kingdom killed. And even then she states he had time to get his people out. Told him. Get your people out. let the CS destroy the buildings. Let them claim victory. Your people would live. Creed had a hissy and threw her out. He -choose- the war. [/quote]

In Creed's defense, the war was already coming. He didn't so much choose the war as he chose to actually fight it.

On the other hand, I wonder what would've happened had he had chosen to evacuate? The CS would likely have still been spoiling for a fight, and if Tolkeen left, they might have just switched targets, either to the Federation of Magic or decided to steamroll Lazlo and New Lazlo on their way to Free Quebec.

[camk4evr]

Then you haven't really read the books. The biggest hand of god moment since Rifts started was tolkeen using their laylines and rift missile detector to totally HAND WAVE flights of nuclear missiles. "Nukes? oh.. we have this new secret magical defense mini rift maker.. You know like the Yuzong Vong out of Star Wars, we're gonna open a mini rift infront of the missiles and suck them into another dimension so the war will last more than the 'flight time' of the missiles from the CS to Tolkeen"

lol. They used the laylines and nexus quite a bit. There's huge sections of the war books talking about it. I will agree BOTH SIDES fought pretty stupidly, but that stuff wass used.

No, I read them cover to cover. I just haven't cracked them open except to skim through to look for certain half remembered passages since they first came out (How long has it been now?) because my gaming group broke up around the mid 90's.

At any rate, any more responces on this are going to have to wait until I can read SOT1 to check out those page quotes (which might be awhile as I'm kinda busy at the moment.

BTW What the **** is a Yuzong Vong? I haven't read a Star Wars book since Dark Force Rising (I think, maybe it was the Thrawn trilogy).

EDIT:
Decided to take a quick look at SOT 1 and found this passage

Tolkeen, by this point, was well on its way to a kind of kingdom wide hysteria, utterly convinced that the Coalition States represented the face of true evil. In this frame of mind, twisted by decades of constant military threats from Chi-town and spiked by the loss of the one person who seemed to keep the Coalition at bay (king Gravandar Henchu), the people of the Kingdom, like their new King, became willing to cut any deal with the devil to save themselves

Almost sounds like fanatics fighting fanatics.

Anyway, I've gotta go now.

EDIT: trying to avoid another warning-_-'

[Pepsi Jedi]

There's multiple places where it's shown. Most recently someone else in this thread has pointed out that it was stated the military build up started in 88 PA or so when Creed took over. The war didn't start till 104/105 PA. Pages 102 & 103 Siege on Tolkeen one.

"In the end, facing increased Coalition Aggression they opted for a strong, militant leader and appointed Robert Creed as King of the Realm. He would make tolkeen a nation and fighting force worthy of recognition and he would teach the coalition the meaning of fear. This, he said, was only the beginning.
As Creed consolidated his power with in Tolkeen, he began pushing the kingdom into a more war ready stated.. he ordered much of Tolkeens industry to produce military items and he began training and recruuiting practitioners of magic of all kinds and teaching them to work in a coordinated tea min the defense of the kingdom. Before long, Tolkeen would have the means of meeting the coalition head on in battle and then it woudl be THEIR turn to suffer, just as the sorcerers of this land had suffered under the coalition boot for so long."

There you go. In straight black and white, Creed started the military build up in 88 PA. The war didn't start till 105 PA. So he built up the military for 17 years before the war started. In the same book you can find Erin Tarn coming to him in 105 PA and pointing out he STILL had time to run. That he could move his people into canada or west before the CS could stop him. Creed had himself a lill hissy fit and yelled at her that he wouldn't do it. He wanted the fight.

Small note for those that like to say the demons came later. Page 103, says Creed was making deals with demonic beings as of or prior to 100 PA.

Arguably Tolkeen had more time than that. They'd been trying to send peaceful envoys to the CS for decades, since the Bloody Campaign (the FoM one, not the NGR one). It was somewhere between 60 and 70 P.A. that Tolkeen finally came to the conclusion that the CS would always be their enemy. So that's about another 18 years of knowing that the CS is a hostile force, and 28 years since Chairman Prosek pulled a Palpatine. And mind you, it's been growing ever since the Bloody Campaign.

Hard to say. I think Tolkeen was naturally defending themselves and status quo, but when Creed took over the books say it was a defining turning point and he full out shifted the nation off it's noble beginnings into a war standing and militerized them.

Now mind you, I think a lot of what Creed does here was wrong (especially the Daemonix), but let's not kid ourselves that the CS would not have attacked if he hadn't. Chi-Town had already been assuming Tolkeen was doing that sort of thing since at least 20 P.A.

I'm not saying they wouldn't, but what's funny is, Chi Town thought Tolkeen was evil and dangerous so they were hostile to Tolkeen, who was at the time, not, but in response to being accused of being evil and violent, replied by BECOMING Evil and violent, and became --exactly-- what the Coalition feared they were. So by the time war broke out, Tolkeen was exactly the nation it'd been accused of being. Tolkeen fullfilled the prophecy that the CS accused them of.

But remember, Tolkeen was making preparations to defend themselves, not to attack the Coalition. The only reason "Get the *BLEEP* Out of There" was espoused by Tolkeen's allies was because they figured Tolkeen couldn't win, not even with their help.

No. if you read it, Creed was fully gearing up militarily to "Teach the coalition the meaning of fear". and stated "This is only the beginning" He was building his military to "Meet the coalition head on in battle and then it would be their turn to suffer" He wasn't sitting there going "Now... yall stay back!! Stay back!!! I mean it!!! Stay back!!!"

He was developing his army to 'teach the CS the meaning of fear" "Meet them head on in battle" and then it'd be the CS" "Turn to suffer"

That's not defense. That's planning on assault and revenge. And again, that plan started in 88 PA. Had instead he started Evacuation and relocation programs then he'd have plenty of time to do it. This wasn't a hurricane hitting the shore in 2 days. This was 17 years of military build up to try and make the CS suffer and pay.

At any rate, it's only human nature to fight for what's yours from an invader so it's not surprising that they chose to fight (esp. since they supposedly had a great defensive position with the ley lines and nexii

It's animal nature to defend your den yes. Humans can think. When --------Everyone--------- Tells you "Hey man, We understand where you're coming from, but if you ffight, you're all going to die. Run. Get out of the way. Live" and you go "Screw it. I'm gonna stay and fight" Well it's your choice, but when you die, it's your fault. Creed had gone dark side. he wanted revenge and slaughter. He made the choice and militerized his 'peaceful nation' and threw them willingly into the jaws of war, and as ---everyone--- told him, was consumed by it and his nation died.

It was a bad decision, but I understand why he made it.

Sure. Fear. Anger. Hate. These are of the Dark Side. (( And perfectly 'human' emotions)) He felt he shouldn't have to bow to the greater power. Shouldn't have to fear for what he was. Shouldn't have to bow down to the human surpremists. I "Get" Why he did it. It was just utterly stupid and he'd devolved to evil by that point. Pushed, Shoved, or Willingly. Evil he was. Vader went dark side trying to do good. it can easily be argued that Tolkeen did the same. Evil it was though.

Think about it, the CS and Tolkeen had pretty much been in a Cold War, and without all the proxy wars and BS the United States and Soviet Union pulled on each other. Now most of us may not have lived though the Cold War years (or at least very many of them) but consider how a lot of media (movies, comic books, etc...) in the 50's-80's often painted the Soviets as unequivocal Bad Guys (I mean,"Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1959 specifically to show we were "Better" than the "Godless Commies"). If you've seen the movie "Red Dawn", that's pretty much exactly how most Tolkeenites saw the CS invasion. (Hell, in many places, that's exactly how the invasion went). From a pure emotional standpoint, the CS was the Boogeyman that the Humans (and D-Bees with human-like lifespans) of Tolkeen had been taught to fear (and in many cases hate, I'm sure) all their lives. A dark shadow over the horizon that hates you just for existing.

Totally, and on the other side. the CS were taught the same thing about magic and D-Bees. Both were wrong.

As a side note... the New Red Dawn movie comes out November 21st!!

WOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So yeah, while there are also other factors, I can see why Tolkeen wanted to stand their ground from that alone.

which I don't remember them ever using (I swear they fought the war like a bunch of rocks)) instead of an evacuation that could take longer if they aren't lucky enough to find a suitable location in less than a year.

Then you haven't really read the books. The biggest hand of god moment since Rifts started was tolkeen using their laylines and rift missile detector to totally HAND WAVE flights of nuclear missiles. "Nukes? oh.. we have this new secret magical defense mini rift maker.. You know like the Yuzong Vong out of Star Wars, we're gonna open a mini rift infront of the missiles and suck them into another dimension so the war will last more than the 'flight time' of the missiles from the CS to Tolkeen"

See, right there you explained why it had to happen, pretty much since Mercenaries came out.

2) They had allies (or, at least, reasonbly friendly nations who they expected would ally with them, or both) until just before the war, so they had reason to believe that they wouldn't be facing the CS alone and therefore it's likely they wouldn't have seen the need to come up with an evacuation plan.

They had allies till it got out how evil they'd become. Even during the war allies like HALF the Cyberknights were on their side (( even with TOLKEEN forces killing and eating them)) The prroblem was from the ---start---- all of Tolkeens allies agreed on one thing. "You can NOT WIN. You should RUN". Not one but TWO of the magical "powers" agreed that ALL of the magical powers united would ----ALL DIE--- if they teamed up. It wasn't like they sat around waffeling. They looked at it and went "Hey Tolkeen even if you, and us, and everyone teamed up. We'd all die. It'd take longer but we'd all die..so we're not teamin' up. You need to get out of dodge!" Where in the now evil tolkeen's reply was 'Frak you guys. We'll do it on our own! You'll see!!!!"

True. Problem was it wasn't until 104 or 105 PA that they told Tolkeen they were on their own (except for Dunscon's FOM who waited until after the shooting started).

But that's not how the books portrayed it. It's portrayed as tolkeen had reached out for aid during their build up and they were told it'd be suicide so no. You need to move. Erin Tarn's goign to creed on the 'eve' of war was her trying again to turn him from the path that would have his entire kingdom killed. And even then she states he had time to get his people out. Told him. Get your people out. let the CS destroy the buildings. Let them claim victory. Your people would live. Creed had a hissy and threw her out. He -choose- the war. [/quote]

In Creed's defense, the war was already coming. He didn't so much choose the war as he chose to actually fight it. [/quote]

his mentor came to him to try and get him to save his people. Said he still had time and could still get out. Could save them. Creed could have still at that point 'saved' the people of tolkeen, by sacrificing the city ((buildings and such)) He still chose to go willingly into the fight.

On the other hand, I wonder what would've happened had he had chosen to evacuate? The CS would likely have still been spoiling for a fight, and if Tolkeen left, they might have just switched targets, either to the Federation of Magic or decided to steamroll Lazlo and New Lazlo on their way to Free Quebec.

That's a lot of retasking and extension of supply lines.. Chances are they'd have thought it a trap... and inched forward, cleaned out the city, taken or destroyed the magic items left then leveled it. Then secured the area. It's not like they were going to go haring off across the country looking behind trees an under rocks for Tolkeen refugees. They would have gotten what they 'wanted'. The "Threat" of the magic/alien/debee nation away from their doorstep.

The CS doesn't like magic and Dbees but Tolkeen's problem was it's proximity to the CS Capital. Had they built their city in San Diego, the CS wouldn't have come after them (( Not for a long long long time anyway.))

[Pepsi Jedi]

Then you haven't really read the books. The biggest hand of god moment since Rifts started was tolkeen using their laylines and rift missile detector to totally HAND WAVE flights of nuclear missiles. "Nukes? oh.. we have this new secret magical defense mini rift maker.. You know like the Yuzong Vong out of Star Wars, we're gonna open a mini rift infront of the missiles and suck them into another dimension so the war will last more than the 'flight time' of the missiles from the CS to Tolkeen"

lol. They used the laylines and nexus quite a bit. There's huge sections of the war books talking about it. I will agree BOTH SIDES fought pretty stupidly, but that stuff wass used.

No, I read them cover to cover. I just haven't cracked them open except to skim through to look for certain half remembered passages since they first came out (How long has it been now?) because my gaming group broke up around the mid 90's.

At any rate, any more responces on this are going to have to wait until I can read SOT1 to check out those page quotes (which might be awhile as I'm kinda busy at the moment.

BTW What the F*** is a Yuzong Vong? I haven't read a Star Wars book since Dark Force Rising (I think, maybe it was the Thrawn trilogy).

I hear ya man. I haven't really sat down and read them for years myself. Just the parts i need to make informed points here. lol.

The Vong were a race of technology hating bio-'borg' that invaded the StarWars Galaxy. The series was after Thrawn, and went for like 13 novels. Lots of stuff happened but my reference was to their ships They were made of living coral and their main defense was the ability to make little mini black holes just in front of missiles or lasers shot at them. So the missile or laser went into the little black holes.

Tolkeen must have found a few copies of the Star Wars novels. As the Nukes launched their way, they did the same thing with instant rift generators. And thus... .the 'war' lasted longer than the flight time of Nukes from the CS to tolkeen. Other wise the war would have been over in a flash. lol


I kinda thought it'd be funny if beings from what ever dimension Tolkeen rifted the nukes into, came back to kick Tolkeens butt. "Throw nukes at US will you!?!? WELL!! TAKE THIS!! AND THIS!! AND A BIT OF THAT!! AND SOME OF THIS!! RAR!!!"

[SAMASzero]

It could still happen, only... Guess who's there now...

In my personal headcanon though, they landed in either Hades or Dyval, either delaying or accelerating the Minon War.

[Giant2005]

Tolkeen must have found a few copies of the Star Wars novels. As the Nukes launched their way, they did the same thing with instant rift generators. And thus... .the 'war' lasted longer than the flight time of Nukes from the CS to tolkeen. Other wise the war would have been over in a flash. lol

I thought it was a little strange too. Sanctuary would have been a much more useful spell to be using, then Tolkeen would have had the Nukes to use right back at the CS.

[camk4evr]

Tolkeen must have found a few copies of the Star Wars novels. As the Nukes launched their way, they did the same thing with instant rift generators. And thus... .the 'war' lasted longer than the flight time of Nukes from the CS to tolkeen. Other wise the war would have been over in a flash. lol

I thought it was a little strange too. Sanctuary would have been a much more useful spell to be using, then Tolkeen would have had the Nukes to use right back at the CS.

One of the many reasons why people say they fought the war like a bunch of morons (both sides but I think some of the biggest idiot ball moments go to Tolkeen).

[Lenwen]

One of the many reasons why people say they fought the war like a bunch of morons (both sides but I think some of the biggest idiot ball moments go to Tolkeen).

Exactly..

With what amounts to an incredible amount of time to build up weaponry and armors ..

And access to phase world ..

And yet not a standardized military body armor , power armor or robots..

I have come up with in the past an easily produced body armor and power armor in which could have easily been a game changer in terms of military power that the coalition would not be able to counter easily..

[Lenwen]

Teleportation superior and the ability to combine both invisibilities provides something that is beyond the coalitions ability to counter on any level..

Now imagine an entire brigade of mages in such types of armors.. I have even Come up with strategies that would enable you to use dog boys 6th sense against them ..

Yet nothing like this was ever developed, however at the end of the war there was a badass suit coming out and would have been Able to turn the tide of the warhead it been developed sooner.. And deployed sooner as well..

[Hotrod]

The latest debate thread on the evils of the CS and Tolkien have me feeling nostalgic.

[DhAkael]

Without reading any of the tedious arguing back & forth; Tolkeen was not "EVIL" but they ended up doing very evil things.
Just like Russia was not "EVIL" per-se in WW2, but wound up doing some really horrible things to the German civilians at the end... now 'Uncle Joeseph'? HE was evil.
Just like I'm sure the fresh-faced recruit in the CS isn't really a bad dude, but given the propganda rammed down their throats and, yes, dealing with some truly horrific things that magi can and DO utilize...Little Private Jimmy gonna turn into a souless butcher of babies by the end of his forst tour unless he has some real moral fortitude.

Now take Tolkeen; a place of learning, tollerance and for the most part, peace. They get some guy in polished SKULL-FACED (which is a universal symbol for many as "bad things") decalring that he's going to wipe them out and salt the earth just because they use a natural force that has become common-place? Darn right the people of Tolkeen told El-capo to 'Jog-on'.
Smart? No. Human? Oh heck yeah... NO ONE respects a foreign power coming in and saying "You are bad because you do not think like we do."

Skip ahead to the opening of the seige, the CS shot first. Their orders were clear; kill ALL magi, whether hostile or not, and "purge the xen...-ahem- D-Bee!" Private Jimmy was just folliwng orders, right? It was too bad that dozens of civies got whacked in the artilery barrage, but they were stinkin' magic lovers, right?
Skip ahead a couple of days, he sees half his squad turned to molten slag covered crispy bacon in a counter-attack by those who just lost families. Were the magi evil? Nope. They were ANGRY.

VERY long story short; The Tolkeen leaders were -ahem- a bit too full of themselves and did NOT realize just how psychotic Prossek was OR how strong his indoctrination of his people. They did not START as evil.
Meanwhile the line-soldier of the CS did not Start evil, but their leaders certainly were.

[Akashic Soldier]

Without reading any of the tedious arguing back & forth; Tolkeen was not "EVIL" but they ended up doing very evil things.

The Kings trusted advisers and war leaders were evil? We have their stats? They're evil people.

Its just a sad fact that its easier for evil people to get into power because they're more willing to do it takes to get there and Tolkeen was a society build on the prestige of magic. If they took a note out of Lazlo's book, or just took their advice and used their vast command over one of the most powerful nexus points on the planet and LEFT than there wouldn't so many casualties. They knew what would happen, they made their choices, they didn't fight to protect their homes, there were no back-up plans for saving their civilians should they fail, there was no compromise... the only option they left themselves was victory, because none of those other things mattered to them as much victory.

They were blinded by their pride and those without the wisdom to take their families and flee to Lazlo or worlds beyond fell. Its an odd day that justice is championed by the malevolent grin of Smiling Jack but I would prefer one Federation of Magic than two.

[DhAkael]

All arguments will be ignored as they are only 'OPINIONS' and not fact.

[Akashic Soldier]

I'm not getting into this... the statement stands.
All arguments will be ignored as they are only 'OPINIONS' and not fact.

I think you will find that if you open your SoT supplements and refer to the Alignment: listing under each of men responsible for the leadership of Tolkeen, you will find that their alignments fall within the "Evil" category as listed within both the R:MB and R:UE.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Without reading any of the tedious arguing back & forth; Tolkeen was not "EVIL" but they ended up doing very evil things.
Just like Russia was not "EVIL" per-se in WW2, but wound up doing some really horrible things to the German civilians at the end... now 'Uncle Joeseph'? HE was evil.
Just like I'm sure the fresh-faced recruit in the CS isn't really a bad dude, but given the propganda rammed down their throats and, yes, dealing with some truly horrific things that magi can and DO utilize...Little Private Jimmy gonna turn into a souless butcher of babies by the end of his forst tour unless he has some real moral fortitude.

Now take Tolkeen; a place of learning, tollerance and for the most part, peace. They get some guy in polished SKULL-FACED (which is a universal symbol for many as "bad things") decalring that he's going to wipe them out and salt the earth just because they use a natural force that has become common-place? Darn right the people of Tolkeen told El-capo to 'Jog-on'.
Smart? No. Human? Oh heck yeah... NO ONE respects a foreign power coming in and saying "You are bad because you do not think like we do."

Skip ahead to the opening of the seige, the CS shot first. Their orders were clear; kill ALL magi, whether hostile or not, and "purge the xen...-ahem- D-Bee!" Private Jimmy was just folliwng orders, right? It was too bad that dozens of civies got whacked in the artilery barrage, but they were stinkin' magic lovers, right?
Skip ahead a couple of days, he sees half his squad turned to molten slag covered crispy bacon in a counter-attack by those who just lost families. Were the magi evil? Nope. They were ANGRY.

VERY long story short; The Tolkeen leaders were -ahem- a bit too full of themselves and did NOT realize just how psychotic Prossek was OR how strong his indoctrination of his people. They did not START as evil.
Meanwhile the line-soldier of the CS did not Start evil, but their leaders certainly were.

You should really read the back and forth before you post. Much of your post was directly refuted, repeatedly, often with page numbers to cite as sources.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Without reading any of the tedious arguing back & forth; Tolkeen was not "EVIL" but they ended up doing very evil things.

The Kings trusted advisers and war leaders were evil? We have their stats? They're evil people.

Its just a sad fact that its easier for evil people to get into power because they're more willing to do it takes to get there and Tolkeen was a society build on the prestige of magic. If they took a note out of Lazlo's book, or just took their advice and used their vast command over one of the most powerful nexus points on the planet and LEFT than there wouldn't so many casualties. They knew what would happen, they made their choices, they didn't fight to protect their homes, there were no back-up plans for saving their civilians should they fail, there was no compromise... the only option they left themselves was victory, because none of those other things mattered to them as much victory.

They were blinded by their pride and those without the wisdom to take their families and flee to Lazlo or worlds beyond fell. Its an odd day that justice is championed by the malevolent grin of Smiling Jack but I would prefer one Federation of Magic than two.

Tolkeen is the standard fall from grace, now how much was caused by the coalition is open to debate, but lets look the relationship between Tolkeen and lazlo and new lazlo, to be brand cowards and traitors, and I mean the first in game wise is her going on about how things have changed in Tolkeen and it wasn't for the better.

[Stonefur]

People tend to forget that Tolkeen is treated as being some how culpable for the various actions and plots of the Federation of Magic, and this is used to promote the "Tolkeen was evil, they are equally responsible" position. Tolkeen is held responsible for not helping the CS, a nation that despised them, when the Federation stuck a fork in the CS from time to time.

[Stonefur]

People tend to forget that Tolkeen is treated as being some how culpable for the various actions and plots of the Federation of Magic, and this is used to promote the "Tolkeen was evil, they are equally responsible" position. Tolkeen is held responsible for not helping the CS, a nation that despised them, when the Federation stuck a fork in the CS from time to time.

Tolkeen was a member of the first federation of magic. /quote]

Tolkeen was not a member of the federation relevant to the major events that transpired between the CS and the FOM that had a direct result on the events leading to the war.

Second Tolkeen was not evil it's leaders were, Creed wanted war just as bad as Karl. Neither side was good neither side was evil, they both felt they were right... The leaders new it was just war mongering.

Tolkeen's "evil" ness is specific to a time frame and very short in comparison to the total time it was in existence, relevant to extremely negative stimulus from a super powered military bent on their destruction. Tolkeen spent decades trying to make nice, and the CS gets a free pass for being rude, difficult and refusing to have any positive diplomatic realtions for decades. The CS has been a military dictatorship with a public intent of "purging", i.e. killing the D-Bees and Magic users that they cannot turn into labor. Making the two sides equally responsible requires many leaps. Yes, Tolkeen was ready for war, but deleting the part where they tried for .... 50 + years to not end up at war makes it seem like you are playing fact favorites.

And Tolkeen being evil was NOT even the point of my post...is it common to ignore 90% of the post when responding? My point was that Tolkeen is often held responsible for not interdicting between the CS and FOM. I really dont see your response as any thing but flame baiting, specifically avoiding the point of my post and failing to really even respond to the intent if my post. It seems to be a pretty common tactic when discussing things on this forum.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

People tend to forget that Tolkeen is treated as being some how culpable for the various actions and plots of the Federation of Magic, and this is used to promote the "Tolkeen was evil, they are equally responsible" position. Tolkeen is held responsible for not helping the CS, a nation that despised them, when the Federation stuck a fork in the CS from time to time.

Tolkeen was a member of the first federation of magic. Second Tolkeen was not evil it's leaders were, Creed wanted war just as bad as Karl. Neither side was good neither side was evil, they both felt they were right... The leaders new it was just war mongering.

funny how war changes everybody, we had a CS soldier run the gaunlet of emotions and in the end doing what was morally right to do, sometime i think this losed on some tolkeen supporters.
the tolkeen leaders ended up being no better then the coalition leaders. the moment tolkeen moved away from the moral high ground, the war was losted for them, after the sorcerer's revenge, mostly of the decent folks who were defending tolkeen lefted, disgusted by their actions and the other defenders(evil supernatural), War is hell and war never changes.

[Stonefur]

Well, good thing i am not a tolkeen supporter, just some one discoursing my opinions on the topic of the thread. The leaders of Tolkeen may have ended up as bad, but they sure did not start that way. Its great how the CS gets to be the aggressor and get a free pass, and some how have years of argument built up to support this notion that Tolkeen "had it coming." And what good is the moral high ground when your neighbor is trying to kill you?

People tend to forget that Tolkeen is treated as being some how culpable for the various actions and plots of the Federation of Magic, and this is used to promote the "Tolkeen was evil, they are equally responsible" position. Tolkeen is held responsible for not helping the CS, a nation that despised them, when the Federation stuck a fork in the CS from time to time.

Tolkeen was a member of the first federation of magic. Second Tolkeen was not evil it's leaders were, Creed wanted war just as bad as Karl. Neither side was good neither side was evil, they both felt they were right... The leaders new it was just war mongering.

funny how war changes everybody, we had a CS soldier run the gaunlet of emotions and in the end doing what was morally right to do, sometime i think this losed on some tolkeen supporters.
the tolkeen leaders ended up being no better then the coalition leaders. the moment tolkeen moved away from the moral high ground, the war was losted for them, after the sorcerer's revenge, mostly of the decent folks who were defending tolkeen lefted, disgusted by their actions and the other defenders(evil supernatural), War is hell and war never changes.

[Akashic Soldier]

Tolkeen's "evil" ness is specific to a time frame and very short in comparison to the total time it was in existence, relevant to extremely negative stimulus from a super powered military bent on their destruction. Tolkeen spent decades trying to make nice, and the CS gets a free pass for being rude, difficult and refusing to have any positive diplomatic realtions for decades. The CS has been a military dictatorship with a public intent of "purging", i.e. killing the D-Bees and Magic users that they cannot turn into labor. Making the two sides equally responsible requires many leaps. Yes, Tolkeen was ready for war, but deleting the part where they tried for .... 50 + years to not end up at war makes it seem like you are playing fact favorites.

And Tolkeen being evil was NOT even the point of my post...is it common to ignore 90% of the post when responding? My point was that Tolkeen is often held responsible for not interdicting between the CS and FOM. I really dont see your response as any thing but flame baiting, specifically avoiding the point of my post and failing to really even respond to the intent if my post. It seems to be a pretty common tactic when discussing things on this forum.

It doesn't really require many leaps of logic, it just requires a broader understanding of the situation. Allow me to try to explain:

There is no justification for intentionally committing evil in the name of personal advancement: This includes but is not limited to sacrificing others for revenge.
You cannot make someone do something they do not want to or be someone they are not: This includes but is not limited to ATTACKING someone because they refuse to make peace with you. (If that was the case Sweden would be SCREWED!) If someone does not like you or does not want to be your friend or trade with you, you do not have the right to attack them - even if they're bad people.
The world is not a perfect utopia: On Rifts Earth enemies are on one another boarders, situations are tense and people are not perfect. According to R:UE the recent advances of the CS out of their territories is the FIRST offensive action they have taken since their inception. This implies that during those 50 years, the Coalition was just sitting there and saying "leave us alone" while Tolkeen refused to take the hint.

Also, the Coalition States did not pick Tolkeen's evil aligned leaders, nor did it choose their King. It was not a democracy and as such a man of questionable values was able to step into power under questionable circumstances and take charge of a kingdom that he was clearly unfit to rule. I have no personal qualms over "Monarchies" but I feel it is important to note that even if 99% of the country was principle and the leadership were the ONLY evil aligned people in the county than the good people were still following the orders of EVIL people and unwittingly committing acts of evil (just like the average Coalition Grunt).

The big difference is (and I would love it if someone actually addressed this) that Tolkeen could have walked away. I know it is a blow to the ego but all the people who blame the Coalition (and a huge part of the blame is theirs) ignore the fact that Tolkeen had within its power to say "Thanks for all the fish!" and take their utopia somewhere else.

This is the thing (and I hate getting dragged into this CS/Tolkeen crapfest, its such a waste of my time) but at the end of the day I feel that justice was served. Both sides did terrible things, there were atrocities, and Tolkeen was stopped. It was covered earlier in this thread but remember, they were trying to weaponize the Rifts. Not Ley Lines, RIFTS (TEARS IN TIME AND SPACE). That is not something ANYONE should be trying to do and Rifts Earth is safer with their research gone and destroyed and their scientists implanted with cybernetic brain-boxes and tube-feeders than risking a mishap that could essentially follow in the footsteps of the Atlantean disaster (or WORSE!)

[Stonefur]

I stated making the "equally" responsible. It doesn't require many leaps to understand they had their hand in and did horrible things. I am sorry but drawing an equal sign based on the evidence presented is a farce. Tolkeen wanted weapons...why did they need weapons? The coalition gets to have nukes...and an apparent pass on what seems to be an obvious thing. Please don't talk to me like i can't read, it does not require a broader understanding of the situation, and I don't need you to explain things to me like I am mistaken...I made my point pretty clear. Nothing in your "SoT for Idiots" has impacted my point of view in the slightest. The CS gets a pass on being the instigator of this whole thing based upon Tolkeen's response? Seems like the cart is going in front of the horse. Ya, Creed said that he would teach the coalition the meaning of fear, but he did not invade Chi-town to pursue his agenda of crazy revenge that he has. He geared up and got ready for an enemy he knew was coming...and had been getting ready to take a swing at some one. Creed may have been evil, but maybe watching the CS blow away people and D-Bee's all his life had that effect on him. I constantly see this on the forums, Tolkeen was just as evil etc etc, but no one accepts that the CS is the originator of the whole situation, and any time it is brought up, there seems to be a campaign to beat down the point of view. Maybe if you had a "broader" understanding of the situation and a pair of fresh eyes, I would not get the same non- response about how I obviously just dont understand what is going, and have some one give me a nice, personally biased "education" on the situation. The coalition is far more responsible, if there were not CS legions stomping mudholes in Tolkeen, it would seem to figure they may not need to make a deal with the devil in a last ditch attempt to SURVIVE total destruction...but who knows, Tolkeen definitely had a reputation for being a center of evil and demon trafficking long before the CS war, right??? There is lots of canon to back that up??

Tolkeen's "evil" ness is specific to a time frame and very short in comparison to the total time it was in existence, relevant to extremely negative stimulus from a super powered military bent on their destruction. Tolkeen spent decades trying to make nice, and the CS gets a free pass for being rude, difficult and refusing to have any positive diplomatic realtions for decades. The CS has been a military dictatorship with a public intent of "purging", i.e. killing the D-Bees and Magic users that they cannot turn into labor. Making the two sides equally responsible requires many leaps. Yes, Tolkeen was ready for war, but deleting the part where they tried for .... 50 + years to not end up at war makes it seem like you are playing fact favorites.

And Tolkeen being evil was NOT even the point of my post...is it common to ignore 90% of the post when responding? My point was that Tolkeen is often held responsible for not interdicting between the CS and FOM. I really dont see your response as any thing but flame baiting, specifically avoiding the point of my post and failing to really even respond to the intent if my post. It seems to be a pretty common tactic when discussing things on this forum.

It doesn't really require many leaps of logic, it just requires a broader understanding of the situation. Allow me to try to explain:

There is no justification for intentionally committing evil in the name of personal advancement: This includes but is not limited to sacrificing others for revenge.
You cannot make someone do something they do not want to or be someone they are not: This includes but is not limited to ATTACKING someone because they refuse to make peace with you. (If that was the case Sweden would be SCREWED!) If someone does not like you or does not want to be your friend or trade with you, you do not have the right to attack them - even if they're bad people.
The world is not a perfect utopia: On Rifts Earth enemies are on one another boarders, situations are tense and people are not perfect. According to R:UE the recent advances of the CS out of their territories is the FIRST offensive action they have taken since their inception. This implies that during those 50 years, the Coalition was just sitting there and saying "leave us alone" while Tolkeen refused to take the hint.

Also, the Coalition States did not pick Tolkeen's evil aligned leaders, nor did it choose their King. It was not a democracy and as such a man of questionable values was able to step into power under questionable circumstances and take charge of a kingdom that he was clearly unfit to rule. I have no personal qualms over "Monarchies" but I feel it is important to note that even if 99% of the country was principle and the leadership were the ONLY evil aligned people in the county than the good people were still following the orders of EVIL people and unwittingly committing acts of evil (just like the average Coalition Grunt).

The big difference is (and I would love it if someone actually addressed this) that Tolkeen could have walked away. I know it is a blow to the ego but all the people who blame the Coalition (and a huge part of the blame is theirs) ignore the fact that Tolkeen had within its power to say "Thanks for all the fish!" and take their utopia somewhere else.

This is the thing (and I hate getting dragged into this CS/Tolkeen crapfest, its such a waste of my time) but at the end of the day I feel that justice was served. Both sides did terrible things, there were atrocities, and Tolkeen was stopped. It was covered earlier in this thread but remember, they were trying to weaponize the Rifts. Not Ley Lines, RIFTS (TEARS IN TIME AND SPACE). That is not something ANYONE should be trying to do and Rifts Earth is safer with their research gone and destroyed and their scientists implanted with cybernetic brain-boxes and tube-feeders than risking a mishap that could essentially follow in the footsteps of the Atlantean disaster (or WORSE!)

[flatline]

Justice is an illusion created for the survivors by the survivors.

The universe doesn't care.

--flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Justice is an illusion created for the survivors by the survivors.

The universe doesn't care.

--flatline

True ,it's just an act of revenge

[Stonefur]

..... ..... random quote of the day...I find its best not to speak for the universe, the universe is perfectly capable of speaking for itself, and if it did actually care, do you think it would tell you?

Justice is justice.

Justice is an illusion created for the survivors by the survivors.

The universe doesn't care.

--flatline

[Stonefur]

The coalition had the same ability to "walk" away from the conflict, but Tolkeen is the only party that has that camp that says "Just move." I find this to be very pro-CS. First of all Rifts earth is extremely dangerous, the general idea of civilization is to find safe place with resources and make it safer. The did not settle on CS lands. They settled in the wilderness, and carved a city out of the Rifts Earth Craziness that abounds. They had every right to that land, so its nice to think they should just have cut and run, or pulled off some massive mojo dimensional city teleport spell to whisk Tolkeen off to safety, but all of these things will not change the fundamental hate, aggression, and genocidal actions of the CS, which is the only way to not be constantly harrassed and attacked. The level of free pass giving to the CS is almost nauseating. I appreciate them from a story point, but the length that some people go to defend and justify behaviors that in any light are just plain evil, is almost disturbing. Even when presented with a simple assertion based on canon evidence that yes, it was the CS's fault, are met with an interesting slew of non-responses that skirt the fundamental nature of the parties involved, especially when the party in question seems to be obvious by the bias of the argument.

[Akashic Soldier]

Tolkeen wanted weapons...why did they need weapons?

Because every major empire on Rifts Earth NEEDS weapons to survive.

The coalition gets to have nukes...and an apparent pass on what seems to be an obvious thing.

As I said earlier, the Coalition gets nukes because they are the rightful inheritors of the American culture and they rightfully recovered them first and the facilities that allowed them to construct them. Spoils of war my friend. You keep getting worked up and lashing out and ignoring the most important part of my response (which I will make again at the end of this post).

Please don't talk to me like i can't read

I am not. I do not think you cannot read, I think you have not or are trolling. And don't worry, this will be my last post. The only reason I bothered posting at all on this topic was because you were going to be joining the game I play in and I had hoped that we could reach a mutual understanding. I am starting to think that was a mistake on my behalf.

It does not require a broader understanding of the situation, and I don't need you to explain things to me like I am mistaken...I made my point pretty clear.

Your point as it was presented and as I understood it was that Tolkeen did not provoke the invasion. Am I misunderstanding you? If so, please clarify your point more so - because it is coming off like you think that the Coalition are evil monsters and Tolkeen are blameless angels and my understanding of the printed material is that is not/was never the case.

Nothing in your "SoT for Idiots" has impacted my point of view in the slightest.

That is okay but I don't understand why you seem to have your hackles up over this? I am not calling you stupid and I assure you that I do not think you are an unintelligent person. Again, I didn't write "SoT for Idiots," I presented events as they occurred from a just and unbiased point of view while taking into consideration the basic vices of the human condition.

The CS gets a pass on being the instigator of this whole thing based upon Tolkeen's response?

Essentially. The Coalition was scared that Tolkeen were demon summoners and witches and had noticed that unlike every other nation Tolkeen wasn't scared (and they were close), that made the CS more scared and more angry and so it stomped on Tolkeen. As it turns out they had been meddling with the Rifts and trying to weaponize them and as the battle continued they even summoned demons - thus becoming the very things the CS feared and the reason that they had invaded. If the CS invaded and Tolkeen was just crushed without resistance I would be totally in your corner and saying "It was diabolic and unprovoked and an inhuman bloodbath" but you know... that ISN'T what actually happened.

Seems like the cart is going in front of the horse. Ya, Creed said that he would teach the coalition the meaning of fear, but he did not invade Chi-town to pursue his agenda of crazy revenge that he has.

Its also important to note that he COULDN'T. Nowhere did I read that was an option that he declined. Just sayin'

He geared up and got ready for an enemy he knew was coming...and had been getting ready to take a swing at some one. Creed may have been evil, but maybe watching the CS blow away people and D-Bee's all his life had that effect on him.

Yup, killing makes people evil, look at what happened to Karl Prosek after his heroic father was killed...

I constantly see this on the forums, Tolkeen was just as evil etc etc, but no one accepts that the CS is the originator of the whole situation, and any time it is brought up, there seems to be a campaign to beat down the point of view.

I don't think I have ever seen you on the forum before the last week or so and I am pretty regular? Putting that aside though, it is my personal experience that it is the OTHER way. What I have observed is that a topic will spring up with a passionate (lets call them "Tolkeenites"), Tolkeenite will come out of the wood works and in a fit of irrational rage say "THE COALITION STATES ARE EVIL!" or my personal favorite "IF YOURE CHARACTER WAS BORN IN THE COALITION STATES YOURE WORSE THAN DEMONS!" Then an ensuring argument over the fact that war is ugly, both sides were in the wrong, and blatant oversights on both sides. At least that is my experience. That said, its always the Coalition's side that cops it the worst. Which I don't think is really fair. It is important you understand that I do not care if the Coalition are good/evil/undefeated/have nuclear weapons/kick puppies/save damsels from dragons... but what I do care about is when such claims are made without any actual evidence supporting this or in blatant disregard to the contrary.

Maybe if you had a "broader" understanding of the situation and a pair of fresh eyes.

That is a fair call but I assure you, that I have looked into this extensively because it is such a point of strong controversy and I wanted to be informed before I added my two cents. I am not perfect, I don't always get it right, but if I have looked at all the information available on the topic (and I have) than unless someone helps enlighten me (as I was trying to help you do), I can only assume my assessment of the situation is the correct one. I am a very open-minded person (would you like references?) but I am not going to buy into a belief set just because it is popular or people get angry or passionate about it. Its very easy to have an opinion or get angry when someone does not share your opinion and I generally do not have a lot of respect for people like that. As such, I do my best (an active effort throughout my day) not to be that person - which is in great part WHY I am having this conversation with you at all. If you are correct, I want to know so I can learn and also be correct. That's me. I am not here to argue with anyone. I gain nothing from that.

The Coalition is far more responsible, if there were not CS legions stomping mudholes in Tolkeen, it would seem to figure they may not need to make a deal with the devil in a last ditch attempt to SURVIVE total destruction...but who knows, Tolkeen definitely had a reputation for being a center of evil and demon trafficking long before the CS war, right??? There is lots of canon to back that up??

There is evidence (listed in this thread if you are interested) that they began secretly building their demonic army prior to the invasion. This is significant because that implies said demons would have to have been housed somewhere within their lands and demons are not generally a peaceful people. Likewise, I am not sure I have ever read (or seen) a good aligned force utilizing demonic militia in the name of justice, peace or self defense.

Please, this is the most important part of this post (if you read nothing else - read this):
Why didn't Tolkeen leave peacefully or join with Lalzo when the opportunity presented itself? The entire bloody war could have easily been avoided decades ago as soon as Creed took power. What is the more "noble" or "enlightened" course of action:

1. Leaving with a loss of no innocent life
2. Fighting what you know to be a losing battle

At best, Tolkeen's victory would have earned them more 10 years. They were a city state. The Coalition States are one of (if not THE) largest civilization of human beings on the planet.

What good or just man fights a losing battle, joins forces with demons, and sacrifices innocent lives to win a war based on revenge and hatred?

Karl Prosek might be an evil manipulative liar, but at least he is sane. Something I am not sure King Creed could claim, not with any credibility. His war-effort could be likened to a turtle throwing its body under the wheel of a speeding truck in the hope that said truck might swerve and crash.

[Stonefur]

Clap Clap Clap...thanks for breaking that down for me in a totally non condescending way...again...**** YOU!!!

Warning: Insult.

[NMI]

Due to the repeated reported posts by multiple parties. Due to multiple parties either trolling, flaming or just "skirting" the rules, I am locking this thread.

To those of you reporting each other left and right. You obviously do not get along with each other. Please use this link - ucp.php?i=zebra&mode=foes and add each other to your foe/ignore list so that you do not have to see each others posts. It is that simple.