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Zer0 Kay wrote:
So basically all its going to do is allow an already existing flame burn bigger, hotter and faster.

Yep, pretty much.

PigLick

Tyciol wrote:Escape wouldn't lock the door behind you. It lets YOU escape, anyone with you escaping is a side effect. TM's wrong.

Huh? TM was saying if a buddy is in the cell next to you, you wouldn't be able to open his just yours. He was saying that, that is stupid because he can't get his friend out even though the door is still barring his way (which is what the spell says) but not barring his way from escape.

I'm the one who was being SARCASTIC and saying that since people are taking the "escape" spells name so literally that it wouldn't allow you to open the door if there was more than you in the cell because then it is barring both of your way out to escape and the spell says the mages way not a mage an friend. So if the mage is still able to get out then the spell must also lock the door to keep the friend in.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Damn so it does have the range in the...uh range section of the spell. But your right about the skin. It must be the first magical material a technological society has made. Of course it is also strange that SDC magic from other games can teleport you into a tank or a Trojan horse (and I don't mean virus) but in an enriched magic environment it can't materialize in a VW Bug made of MDC material.

Well, I'd say that you can't teleport into MDC PA/bots/GR/etc. in a non-magic enriched environment. If a mage of one type or another from PFRGP got into the Robotech timeline, I wouldn't let him teleport into a sealed Veritech, either.

MDC is, in and of itself, "magic". MDC structures from Robotech were all "protoculture" science (i.e. balonium) materials, not createable at all without the balonium.

MDC in Rifts is equally balonium, a sort of ultimate in passive TW balonium, one that doesn't require active PPE expenditure, that perhaps soaks it up from the background PPE count due to the "balonium" manufacturing method, or whatever (and since it's a passive back-ground mechanism, it can do this in low-magic environments, too).

The real reason for the rules regarding PA/bots/GR/etc. is game-balance. It has no foundation in reality whatsoever.

There, that explanation was packed so full of baloney that now I'm out and will have to go down the street for more.

You'd say this you'd say that. I don't care I thought we were arguing the rules not trying to give how we'd run it...as a matter of fact I think I even made a post up for opinions rather than rules. The rule of no teleport into vehicle is ONLY Rifts it doesn't appear in PFRPG, TMNT: Transdimensional, HU, Robotech, or BtS. It doesn't appear in any other book asside from supplemental/clairification rules books for Rifts.

Tyciol wrote:Your sarcasm bars my path, so I attack it too.

now now you don't attack it you cast escape on it.

Ach and it dies just short of 1000 posts

Well, if all's been said and done, and it's dying, then I guess the final verdict is:

Yes, you *can* teleport into an environmentally sealed vehicle or robot.

Traska wrote:Well, if all's been said and done, and it's dying, then I guess the final verdict is:

Yes, you *can* teleport into an environmentally sealed vehicle or robot.

Absolutely.

how many more posts til 1000?

A few.

gotta love doom's short concise answers.

I think doom has Multisyllabiphobia, fear of using too many syllables to state a point.

Dork Vader wrote:gotta love doom's short concise answers.

I think doom has Multisyllabiphobia, fear of using too many syllables to state a point.

Worse, he can't even tell people the name of his illness....

13 more posts people!

Dork Vader wrote:13 more posts people!

how is this relavent to the topic at hand?
12 more to go

Zer0 Kay wrote:You'd say this you'd say that. I don't care

Unliaterally declaring you don't care about what others say invites others to do the same in return.

Zer0 Kay wrote:I thought we were arguing the rules not trying to give how we'd run it

We are discussing the rules. The question was whether you can teleport into a vehicle or not. By extension, this would mean MDC vehicles, there could be no reason to block teleportation into ordinary non-MDC vehicles.

I can determine no difference between an MDC vehicle and an MDC giant robot (mecha, PA, what-have-you). None.

While it may be possible to arbirtrarily set the two groups of machinery apart, I can't see a reason for doing so. If the two groups are set apart (for whatever reason), then one can point to MDC vehicles and say thusly, "We may teleport into MDC vehicles." But as I've stated many times, I can't see a reason for setting the groups apart.

The rules are crystal clear that magic cannot penetrate the skin of an MDC giant robot/mecha. The magic that drives a teleport cannot get inside and so no materialization is possible. Since I can't see a difference between MDC vehicles and MDC giant robots (all MDC giant robots may be classified as vehicles), I see no reason to allow teleportation into an MDC vehicle (or an MDC building, for that matter).

Which is the, "why," behind, "I'd run it that way."

Zer0 Kay: Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:53 pm wrote:...as a matter of fact I think I even made a post up for opinions rather than rules.

Zer0 Kay: Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:41 am wrote:Please site rules or logic for allowing or disallowing the capability.

I am doing so.

Zer0 Kay wrote:The rule of no teleport into vehicle is ONLY Rifts

Technically, we can only infer it in Rifts. As I do in my argument above.

Zer0 Kay wrote:it doesn't appear in PFRPG, TMNT: Transdimensional, HU, Robotech, or BtS.

• Robotech: There are no magi running around with Teleport, there was no reason to include the rule.
• PFRPG, TMNT, BtS: The last time I looked inside any of these, they weren't MDC systems, so there was no reason to include the rule.
• HU: Definitely MDC. I don't have the 2nd Edition of the game, sorry, I can't comment.
• This is a Rifts topic in a Rifts forum. Excuse me for thinking about it in Rifts terms exclusively.

Zer0 Kay wrote:It doesn't appear in any other book asside from supplemental/clairification rules books for Rifts.

Despite the similarities of the various game systems, there are still differences. Maybe that'll get ironed out in the future, but that's a hope for another time.

I still like the Escape or Mystic Portal loophole.

10 more to go!

Dork Vader wrote:I still like the Escape or Mystic Portal loophole.

How's this Loop"Hole" work?





9 more to go!

Well, Escape can supposedly just open the hatch.

Mystic Portal can have one end open inside the Giant bot, then you could do something as simple as shoot the pilots from the safety of your globe of invisibility or bushes, or a house, etc.

Then open another, or the hatch, toss the corpses...sell it for big profit on the black market.

RainOfSteel wrote:We are discussing the rules. The question was whether you can teleport into a vehicle or not. By extension, this would mean MDC vehicles, there could be no reason to block teleportation into ordinary non-MDC vehicles.

I can determine no difference between an MDC vehicle and an MDC giant robot (mecha, PA, what-have-you). None.

While it may be possible to arbirtrarily set the two groups of machinery apart, I can't see a reason for doing so. If the two groups are set apart (for whatever reason), then one can point to MDC vehicles and say thusly, "We may teleport into MDC vehicles." But as I've stated many times, I can't see a reason for setting the groups apart.

The rules are crystal clear that magic cannot penetrate the skin of an MDC giant robot/mecha. The magic that drives a teleport cannot get inside and so no materialization is possible. Since I can't see a difference between MDC vehicles and MDC giant robots (all MDC giant robots may be classified as vehicles), I see no reason to allow teleportation into an MDC vehicle (or an MDC building, for that matter).

Which is the, "why," behind, "I'd run it that way."

The rules, in all their crystial clarity, don't say that magic can't penetrate MDC vehicles.
It's just "Vehicles".

I agree that there is no significant difference between a robot vehicle and other types of vehicles, but there is also no significant difference between a vehicle and any other type of container/structure.
Take a Mobile Home, for example.
Or a cardboard box.

Look at it this way:
Compare a VW Beetle to a small metal building that is shaped and designed in exactly the same way as a VW Beetle, only there is no engine and the wheels don't turn.

The only difference between the two structures is that one is a vehicle and the other is not.
Going strictly by the rules, then magic would have no problems penetrating the VW Beetle Building, but it could NOT penetrate the VW Beetle car.
Which doesn't make ANY sense.
Meaning that the rule itself makes no sense.

The only way to stick to the strict letter of the law, that magic cannot penetrate vehicles, is this:
1. Notice that the rules never say that magic CAN penetrate walls, etc. The rules clearly say that magic couldn't penetrate a car, but they never say that magic CAN penetrate a building (shaped like a car or not).
2. This would eliminate the nonsense about mages being able to teleport into cardboard boxes, but not into cardboard boxes with wheels.
3. But it would also mean that mages cannot teleport into apartment buildings. Or even tents, for that matter.
Which makes the spell pretty useless.

I would agree with this though:

"The Mage Cannot safely teleport into a Moving Vehicle without having both an intimate knowledge of the vehicle, and suffering increased penalties incurred on the teleports likelihood of success"

like, instead of the current 3% of winding up in an object, make it 50% or more without intimate knowledge...

with line of sight of the vehicle/intimate knowledge, maybe 25%-33%

There's still nothing saying that teleport penetrates the skin of a robot or vehicle. Show me that, and I'd concede. It doesn't, though. It bypasses said skin entirely.

Man... Next time i fight a Mage... I'm gonna use a Covered Wagon.... its a Vehical... and mages cant teleport in to it... just climb up in the back like everybody else... so much for their high and mighty Magic... they cant even summon lightining indoors.... My Wagon is an indoor area!

Prepare to die!
Nope! *closes door and locks it*
CURSES! HE FOUND MY WEAKNESS! *knocks on door* can I please come inside and kill you?
Hmmmmm...no
C'mon...I'll be your best friiieeeeend

Killer Cyborg wrote:The rules, in all their crystial clarity, don't say that magic can't penetrate MDC vehicles.
It's just "Vehicles".

No, that's not what it says. BoM p.21 "Magic cannot penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles."

Giant robots are MDC structures (this is a Rifts topic, and so, in application, this rule is discussing MDC for Rifts, not SDC-only milieus, for which I'd certainly go bonkers trying to interpret or apply this rule, it seems tailor made specifically for Rifts), the appending of "vehicles" directly after "giant robots" seems, to me to include them in that MDC category. I realize other people may not see that part of it that way.

But it is a rule in the BoM, not "just Rifts" (as was implied), no matter how much it seems like a Rifts-only rule.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I agree that there is no significant difference between a robot vehicle and other types of vehicles, but there is also no significant difference between a vehicle and any other type of container/structure.
Take a Mobile Home, for example.
Or a cardboard box.

There is a difference. An MDC structure is made of "balonium" (remember, as I assert above, giant robots and vehicles, as mentioned under the BoM p.21 rule, are MDC). The cardboard box is not. MDC stops the passage of magic. (Yes, that last sentence is purely my own interpretation.) One must punch a hole in the MDC in order for magic to "get through".

Killer Cyborg wrote:Look at it this way:
Compare a VW Beetle to a small metal building

It's not likely that either are MDC structures.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Going strictly by the rules, then magic would have no problems penetrating the VW Beetle Building, but it could NOT penetrate the VW Beetle car.

Except that none of those are MDC.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Which doesn't make ANY sense.

As I mentioned above, the BoM rule on p.21, in an SDC milieu, would drive me nuts.

The only thing I can see that makes the rule work is MDC itself.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Meaning that the rule itself makes no sense.

For non-MDC milieus, I'd agree.

Killer Cyborg wrote:The only way to stick to the strict letter of the law, that magic cannot penetrate vehicles, is this:
1. Notice that the rules never say that magic CAN penetrate walls, etc. The rules clearly say that magic couldn't penetrate a car, but they never say that magic CAN penetrate a building (shaped like a car or not).
2. This would eliminate the nonsense about mages being able to teleport into cardboard boxes, but not into cardboard boxes with wheels.
3. But it would also mean that mages cannot teleport into apartment buildings. Or even tents, for that matter.
Which makes the spell pretty useless.

Well, except for, I don't know, long-distance travel? that sounds sort of useful to me.

Also, one can waltz up to an MDC building, punch a hairline hole in the wall, and teleport in at will. One can also do this with an MDC vehicle, if, say, the external vents are open . . . which is why I personally also apply "environmentally sealed" to the rules-condition. (There, that's sufficiently different from rules to be an "opinion".)

RainOfSteel wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The rules, in all their crystial clarity, don't say that magic can't penetrate MDC vehicles.
It's just "Vehicles".

No, that's not what it says. BoM p.21 "Magic cannot penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles."

Giant robots are MDC structures (this is a Rifts topic, and so, in application, this rule is discussing MDC for Rifts, not SDC-only milieus, for which I'd certainly go bonkers trying to interpret or apply this rule, it seems tailor made specifically for Rifts), the appending of "vehicles" directly after "giant robots" seems, to me to include them in that MDC category. I realize other people may not see that part of it that way.

But it is a rule in the BoM, not "just Rifts" (as was implied), no matter how much it seems like a Rifts-only rule.

Last i looked at my Mercinaries book... the Chip-wel Armors were SDC Giant robots, in Rifts. so the Whole Ginats Robots are MDC thing isnt completly true. nor would be a HU-Robot pilot who came to Rifts earth with a SDC-Robot... Magic still could not pass though these Robots... so MDC really isnt a bearing on the Limitation.
the same thing with "Vehicles". Once the Door is Closed on any type of Vehicle, its "skin" become impenetrable to Magic.
Close the Door on the Wagon, and its just as sealed from Mages as a Glitterboy.

Traska wrote:There's still nothing saying that teleport penetrates the skin of a robot or vehicle.

It doesn't have to. It's implicit. The spellcaster is outside the target. The spellcaster casts Teleport. The magic takes effect on the spellcaster, moves the "dematerialized" (energy/phase-state or whatever) form of the spellcaster over to the giant robot, and then the magic can't get through the skin, and because the magic can't get through the skin, the dematerialized form of the spellcaster can't be moved, by the magic, into the giant robot, followed by the end of spell, probably in some type of teleport failure.

Traska wrote:Show me that, and I'd concede. It doesn't, though. It bypasses said skin entirely.

Could you please Describe how the magic gets inside the giant robot without penetrating the skin. In particular, how is the skin of the giant robot bypassed when the rule on BoM p.21 says that can't happen?

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Last i looked at my Mercinaries book... the Chip-wel Armors were SDC Giant robots... in Rifts...

The CAI-100 Warmonger Combat Suit is personal armor, not a giant robot.

Colonel Wolfe wrote: so the Whole Ginats Robots are MDc thing isnt completly true...

See above.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:no would be a HU-Robot pilot who came to Rifts earth with a SDC-Robot... Magic still could not pass though these Robots...

If it went into Rifts Earth, and was converted, it would wind up MDC. I looked in Conversion Book One, and it talked strictly about characters, not about giant robots, so it wasn't any help on whether or not it would be converted. However, in this case of no MDC conversion, I'd just argue that since they weren't MDC, they'd be vulnerable to Teleport, or indeed any magic, in the context of Rifts.

The Spanish Inquisition wrote:Prepare to die!
Nope! *closes door and locks it*
CURSES! HE FOUND MY WEAKNESS! *knocks on door* can I please come inside and kill you?
Hmmmmm...no
C'mon...I'll be your best friiieeeeend

Whereupon the mage casts Firebolt, rolls 4d6, comes up with 14 MD, and does 1400 SDC to the non-MDC door that was just closed and locked. If the person who just locked the door is an ordinary unarmored human, that person is now vaporized.

Or, better, the mage walks over three feet, smashes in the front-room window, and teleports anywhere inside that house; or just lobs in a Fireball.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The rules, in all their crystial clarity, don't say that magic can't penetrate MDC vehicles.
It's just "Vehicles".

No, that's not what it says. BoM p.21 "Magic cannot penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles."

Giant robots are MDC structures (this is a Rifts topic, and so, in application, this rule is discussing MDC for Rifts, not SDC-only milieus, for which I'd certainly go bonkers trying to interpret or apply this rule, it seems tailor made specifically for Rifts), the appending of "vehicles" directly after "giant robots" seems, to me to include them in that MDC category. I realize other people may not see that part of it that way.

The only thing resembling a justification of the "mages can't teleport into Vehicles/Robots" theory is based entirely on sticking to the letter of the rules instead of the intent of the rules.
So be consistant and stick to the letter of the rules.
No inserting "MDC" where it isn't mentioned.
If they meant MDC, they'd say MDC... just like certain spells say they can't penetrate "MDC armor".

RainOfSteel wrote:But it is a rule in the BoM, not "just Rifts" (as was implied), no matter how much it seems like a Rifts-only rule.

The BoM is a "Just Rifts" Book, unless I missed the page where it said that everything in it applies across the Megaverse.
If I did miss that, point out the page number for me...

RainOfSteel wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I agree that there is no significant difference between a robot vehicle and other types of vehicles, but there is also no significant difference between a vehicle and any other type of container/structure.
Take a Mobile Home, for example.
Or a cardboard box.

There is a difference. An MDC structure is made of "balonium" (remember, as I assert above, giant robots and vehicles, as mentioned under the BoM p.21 rule, are MDC). The cardboard box is not. MDC stops the passage of magic. (Yes, that last sentence is purely my own interpretation.) One must punch a hole in the MDC in order for magic to "get through".

As I have said; the rules NEVER say anything about the vehicles/robots having to be MDC.
So this response and most of the rest of your responses aren't valid.

RainOfSteel wrote:Also, one can waltz up to an MDC building, punch a hairline hole in the wall, and teleport in at will. One can also do this with an MDC vehicle, if, say, the external vents are open . . . which is why I personally also apply "environmentally sealed" to the rules-condition. (There, that's sufficiently different from rules to be an "opinion".)

According to the rules, a vehicle doesn't have to be environmentally sealed in order to keep magic in/out of it.
You could be driving a car with all four windows down, and mages still couldn't cast spells out of it unless they hung half-way out of the window.
So yes, your "environmentally sealed" theory is purely a house rule.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:no would be a HU-Robot pilot who came to Rifts earth with a SDC-Robot... Magic still could not pass though these Robots...

If it went into Rifts Earth, and was converted, it would wind up MDC. I looked in Conversion Book One, and it talked strictly about characters, not about giant robots, so it wasn't any help on whether or not it would be converted. However, in this case of no MDC conversion, I'd just argue that since they weren't MDC, they'd be vulnerable to Teleport, or indeed any magic, in the context of Rifts.

CB1, p. 42
Bots and Borgs from HU remain SDC.

There is nothing about the nature of Robot Vehicles in Rifts that makes them inherently MDC. Anybody could make an SDC robot, they just don't bother anymore because MDC is tougher and robots draw a lot of fire in combat. So, even though there aren't any SDC robots in Rifts, there easily COULD be.
Also, there are still plenty of SDC Vehicles in Rifts.
Your MDC theory also falls apart there.
If you want to include it as a house rule, for consistancy's sake, go for it... but it's just a house rule.

It doesn't have to. It's implicit. The spellcaster is outside the target. The spellcaster casts Teleport. The magic takes effect on the spellcaster, moves the "dematerialized" (energy/phase-state or whatever) form of the spellcaster over to the giant robot, and then the magic can't get through the skin, and because the magic can't get through the skin, the dematerialized form of the spellcaster can't be moved, by the magic, into the giant robot, followed by the end of spell, probably in some type of teleport failure.

There's no magic trail leading from point A to point B, unless you're arguing that a psi-stalker or dog boy can sense when someone teleports past them. The mage ceases to exist in any form at location A, and then suddenly exists once more at location B. There's no crossing the intervening space in any way.

Traska wrote:

It doesn't have to. It's implicit. The spellcaster is outside the target. The spellcaster casts Teleport. The magic takes effect on the spellcaster, moves the "dematerialized" (energy/phase-state or whatever) form of the spellcaster over to the giant robot, and then the magic can't get through the skin, and because the magic can't get through the skin, the dematerialized form of the spellcaster can't be moved, by the magic, into the giant robot, followed by the end of spell, probably in some type of teleport failure.

There's no magic trail leading from point A to point B, unless you're arguing that a psi-stalker or dog boy can sense when someone teleports past them. The mage ceases to exist in any form at location A, and then suddenly exists once more at location B. There's no crossing the intervening space in any way.

I like that.

Dork Vader wrote:gotta love doom's short concise answers.

I think doom has Multisyllabiphobia, fear of using too many syllables to state a point.

Kinda scary almost like he does the error messages for Microsoft. Concise yet useless.

Tyciol wrote:You died?

No Thilly the post.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:You'd say this you'd say that. I don't care

Unliaterally declaring you don't care about what others say invites others to do the same in return.

I apologize it wasn't meant as unilateral it was directed toward your giving your opinions on what you'd do when this thread was meant for clarification of the rules. I also mention that their is a thread opened for everyones opinions, though I don't know how far down that has gone.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:I thought we were arguing the rules not trying to give how we'd run it

We are discussing the rules. The question was whether you can teleport into a vehicle or not. By extension, this would mean MDC vehicles, there could be no reason to block teleportation into ordinary non-MDC vehicles.

I can determine no difference between an MDC vehicle and an MDC giant robot (mecha, PA, what-have-you). None.

While it may be possible to arbirtrarily set the two groups of machinery apart, I can't see a reason for doing so. If the two groups are set apart (for whatever reason), then one can point to MDC vehicles and say thusly, "We may teleport into MDC vehicles." But as I've stated many times, I can't see a reason for setting the groups apart.

The rules are crystal clear that magic cannot penetrate the skin of an MDC giant robot/mecha. The magic that drives a teleport cannot get inside and so no materialization is possible. Since I can't see a difference between MDC vehicles and MDC giant robots (all MDC giant robots may be classified as vehicles), I see no reason to allow teleportation into an MDC vehicle (or an MDC building, for that matter).

Which is the, "why," behind, "I'd run it that way."

Ah but that is not what you said, and I'm paraphrasing here, you would not allow T-porting into MDC vehicles, GR, PA etc. in any Palladium game.
Now if your going BY THE RULES the Rifts GMG only governs...RIFTS therefore since no supplement for Robotech or any other game aside from Rifts stating that there is no T-porting into any MDC vehicle then according to the rules you can in every other game except for Rifts.

My other problem with your statement is that you say MDC vehicles, GR, PA, etc. . The rules only state MDC vehicles and GR, it does not mention PA (and PAs are NOT GRs), as you do or EBA, MDC airlocks, MDC environmentally sealed cities...like Tritonia or possibly Chi-Town (I don't know if it can be environmentally sealed.)

So in those cases it is based on opinion and not on the rules from the books. Now as I said before your opinion would be valued...in the correct thread.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Zer0 Kay: Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:53 pm wrote:...as a matter of fact I think I even made a post up for opinions rather than rules.

Zer0 Kay: Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:41 am wrote:Please site rules or logic for allowing or disallowing the capability.

I am doing so.

OK I meant, and this should have been infered by being in the Rifts Forum, in the Rifts game system. Rules not found in other MDC settings can be used to argue that only having it in Rifts doesn't make sense. However, your (not necessarily meaning you) opinions based on GM ruling or house rules in other MDC settings don't mean squat when judging the validity of the Rifts GMG ruling. However it, refering to non-rule based opinions, do count and are valued in the opinion thread.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:The rule of no teleport into vehicle is ONLY Rifts

Technically, we can only infer it in Rifts. As I do in my argument above.

Yeah...you also apply it to PA etc. though. The rule only applies to Giant Robots and Vehicles. It does not restrict one from teleporting into PA, EBA or environmentally sealed cities...now I feel redundant, as if I'd said most of this stuff before.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:it doesn't appear in PFRPG, TMNT: Transdimensional, HU, Robotech, or BtS.

• Robotech: There are no magi running around with Teleport, there was no reason to include the rule.

Nope No magi...just the Perytonians' and the Regis' mystic like powers

RainOfSteel wrote:

PFRPG, TMNT, BtS: The last time I looked inside any of these, they weren't MDC systems, so there was no reason to include the rule.

HU: Definitely MDC. I don't have the 2nd Edition of the game, sorry, I can't comment.

HU2 isn't MDC good point, however is the rulling in Splicers? Will it be in Mechanoids Space (if that becomes MDC)? Oh and MDC in RT isn't based on Protoculture. MDC is also used for the Pre Macross equipment.

RainOfSteel wrote:

This is a Rifts topic in a Rifts forum. Excuse me for thinking about it in Rifts terms exclusively.

Then don't bring up how you'd run T-port in RT and ignore that section.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:It doesn't appear in any other book asside from supplemental/clairification rules books for Rifts.

Despite the similarities of the various game systems, there are still differences. Maybe that'll get ironed out in the future, but that's a hope for another time.

Not gonna happen there is no RT anymore if they were going to "iron it out" then the rule should be present in Splicers.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:You'd say this you'd say that. I don't care

Unliaterally declaring you don't care about what others say invites others to do the same in return.

Zer0 Kay wrote:I thought we were arguing the rules not trying to give how we'd run it

We are discussing the rules. The question was whether you can teleport into a vehicle or not. By extension, this would mean MDC vehicles, there could be no reason to block teleportation into ordinary non-MDC vehicles.

I can determine no difference between an MDC vehicle and an MDC giant robot (mecha, PA, what-have-you). None.

While it may be possible to arbirtrarily set the two groups of machinery apart, I can't see a reason for doing so. If the two groups are set apart (for whatever reason), then one can point to MDC vehicles and say thusly, "We may teleport into MDC vehicles." But as I've stated many times, I can't see a reason for setting the groups apart.

The rules are crystal clear that magic cannot penetrate the skin of an MDC giant robot/mecha. The magic that drives a teleport cannot get inside and so no materialization is possible. Since I can't see a difference between MDC vehicles and MDC giant robots (all MDC giant robots may be classified as vehicles), I see no reason to allow teleportation into an MDC vehicle (or an MDC building, for that matter).

Which is the, "why," behind, "I'd run it that way."

You do realize the rule in question doesn't mention MDC at all right?
Giant robots and vehicles is all it says.
If you go exactly by the wording in one part you must for the rest.

Oh and for the umpteenth time magic is not penetrating the skin for a teleport. It is bypassed entirely.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Man... Next time i fight a Mage... I'm gonna use a Covered Wagon.... its a Vehical... and mages cant teleport in to it... just climb up in the back like everybody else... so much for their high and mighty Magic... they cant even summon lightining indoors.... My Wagon is an indoor area!

Oh but if their PFRPG mages they can summon lightning from indoors (the spell says so) allthough according to the accepted answer in that thread it can't strike something indoors. It just says "can be cast indoors" so that the stupid player know that if you are indoors and can see a target outside you can cast the spell...hey there is one they edited so that you couldn't cast it from inside an MDC vehicle even though according to the original text you could since your just inside.

The Spanish Inquisition wrote:Prepare to die!
Nope! *closes door and locks it*
CURSES! HE FOUND MY WEAKNESS! *knocks on door* can I please come inside and kill you?
Hmmmmm...no
C'mon...I'll be your best friiieeeeend

That's FUd man, you are so wrong (in a good way)

RainOfSteel wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The rules, in all their crystial clarity, don't say that magic can't penetrate MDC vehicles.
It's just "Vehicles".

No, that's not what it says. BoM p.21 "Magic cannot penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles."

Giant robots are MDC structures (this is a Rifts topic, and so, in application, this rule is discussing MDC for Rifts, not SDC-only milieus, for which I'd certainly go bonkers trying to interpret or apply this rule, it seems tailor made specifically for Rifts), the appending of "vehicles" directly after "giant robots" seems, to me to include them in that MDC category. I realize other people may not see that part of it that way.

Oh so you can T-port into the giant robot made by the company in Mercenaries that uses SDC material? Uh wait the rules don't state what DC so either it is ALL Giant Robots and Vehicles (hereby shortened to ALL VEHICLES) or the entire thing is bust.

But it is a rule in the BoM, not "just Rifts" (as was implied), no matter how much it seems like a Rifts-only rule.

The BoM is a RIFTS source book not a PFRPG not a TMNT not a RT not N&S or BtS or any other game JUST RIFTS.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I agree that there is no significant difference between a robot vehicle and other types of vehicles, but there is also no significant difference between a vehicle and any other type of container/structure.
Take a Mobile Home, for example.
Or a cardboard box.

There is a difference. An MDC structure is made of "balonium" (remember, as I assert above, giant robots and vehicles, as mentioned under the BoM p.21 rule, are MDC). The cardboard box is not. MDC stops the passage of magic. (Yes, that last sentence is purely my own interpretation.) One must punch a hole in the MDC in order for magic to "get through".

Killer Cyborg wrote:Look at it this way:
Compare a VW Beetle to a small metal building

It's not likely that either are MDC structures.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Going strictly by the rules, then magic would have no problems penetrating the VW Beetle Building, but it could NOT penetrate the VW Beetle car.

Except that none of those are MDC.

KC's point is this how is it that you can't t-port into any (even if it is just MDC) vehicle but you can into a (MDC) building? How is it that the skin of any vehicle makes it different from a building made out of the same material. You can't even say it is the same material. Not all MDC materials are the same. You have the CS's crap, NGR's, Japan's, the most different is the city from Under Seas that uses elements then turns them MDC with the Philosopher's Stone. They aren't the same so how do all vehicles no matter what material their made from block T-port but any building made of the same materials not?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Which doesn't make ANY sense.

As I mentioned above, the BoM rule on p.21, in an SDC milieu, would drive me nuts.

The only thing I can see that makes the rule work is MDC itself.

You do realize that Mechanoids is an SDC world and anthing that may come thorugh a rift could likewise become MDC even though it was SDC.

Also it seems you are trying to make sense of the rule by adding to it rather than just saying that it does not make sense.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Meaning that the rule itself makes no sense.

For non-MDC milieus, I'd agree.

Even for MDC as above how can any vehicle such as a Mountaineer be invulnerable to T-port but you take off the wheels and use it as a building and then it suddenly is. That doesn't make sense in any milieu.

Killer Cyborg wrote:The only way to stick to the strict letter of the law, that magic cannot penetrate vehicles, is this:
1. Notice that the rules never say that magic CAN penetrate walls, etc. The rules clearly say that magic couldn't penetrate a car, but they never say that magic CAN penetrate a building (shaped like a car or not).
2. This would eliminate the nonsense about mages being able to teleport into cardboard boxes, but not into cardboard boxes with wheels.
3. But it would also mean that mages cannot teleport into apartment buildings. Or even tents, for that matter.
Which makes the spell pretty useless.

Well, except for, I don't know, long-distance travel? that sounds sort of useful to me.

You do realize a portion of Teleport: Greater requires the mage have a sanctuary...kind of hard to have in the great outdoors.

Also, one can waltz up to an MDC building, punch a hairline hole in the wall, and teleport in at will. One can also do this with an MDC vehicle, if, say, the external vents are open . . . which is why I personally also apply "environmentally sealed" to the rules-condition. (There, that's sufficiently different from rules to be an "opinion".)

Yeah great and all that except by the rules in order to breach the armor you have to do like 1/3 it's total MDC. By other people's opinions you can't even breach the armor using a GBs stabalizing poles even though it can burrow into ANYTHING and it does only do 1MD which was justified as the necessary amount of damage to penitrate material over such a small area.

Traska wrote:

It doesn't have to. It's implicit. The spellcaster is outside the target. The spellcaster casts Teleport. The magic takes effect on the spellcaster, moves the "dematerialized" (energy/phase-state or whatever) form of the spellcaster over to the giant robot, and then the magic can't get through the skin, and because the magic can't get through the skin, the dematerialized form of the spellcaster can't be moved, by the magic, into the giant robot, followed by the end of spell, probably in some type of teleport failure.

There's no magic trail leading from point A to point B, unless you're arguing that a psi-stalker or dog boy can sense when someone teleports past them. The mage ceases to exist in any form at location A, and then suddenly exists once more at location B. There's no crossing the intervening space in any way.

Even better they must be arguing that the psi-stalker and dog boy can track your teleport. (i.e. you teleport from a conflict with said individuals and they strat sniffing you down) Uh wait the rules don't say that...

Here is my challenge. Find an instance where a vehicle that is moving can be defined as a "place" and not as a "thing." post your definition.

So, what you're saying is that the coordinates that a vehicle occupies cannot be a place because there's a thing there? So, if I'm in a moving car, I cease to exist because I'm in no place at all?

Wow.

silverlb wrote:So, this cardboard box thing. Is it moving when the mage tries teleport? Am I to assume that you want to teleport into a MOVING vehicle?

The rules don't say anything about the vehicle being moving, so it doesn't really matter.

So I looked up "vehicle" on dictionary.com. your wheeled box could be a vehicle, but check out this definition.

"A device for transporting persons or things"

A device that moves. That would be a THING, not a PLACE.

Yes, a box is a thing.
Which is why you can't teleport into "box".
Of course, nobody is talking about that... we're talking about teleporting into "the inside of the box", which is a place.

A building is a thing. Can you not teleport into a building?

A farm is a thing. Can you not teleport onto a farm?

A bridge is a thing. Can you not teleport onto a bridge?

Grass is a thing. Can you not teleport onto grass?

A tunnel is a thing. Can you not teleport into a tunnel?

Air is a thing. Can you not teleport anywhere there is air?

Wow, teleport sounds pretty useless.

*sings* Its the thread that never ends it goes on and on my friends. *ends singing*

ok we have seen that no one will get anywhere on this since there is so little evidence either way. why not just drop the question and turn it to the ultimate authority. The GM of each game makes a ruling if the question comes up in his/her game.

rellik wrote:

silverlb wrote:Here is my challenge. Find an instance where a vehicle that is moving can be defined as a "place" and not as a "thing." post your definition.

when it is not moving but the surface it is on is....a planet perhaps?

nice. Movement is Relative to your perception of the universe. when a car is inmotion, it is siting still, and everything else is moving around it...
there is to many variables to analyze this to much...
you can't T-port in to a Sealed Vehical? how about one wiht a pin hole in its venteltaion system... or one with an open seal... Whats a "Vehical" any ways? my nephwes Radio-Flyer redwagon is a Vehical to him... he uses it to transport all kinds of Things around...

silverlb wrote:So, this cardboard box thing. Is it moving when the mage tries teleport? Am I to assume that you want to teleport into a MOVING vehicle?

So I looked up "vehicle" on dictionary.com. your wheeled box could be a vehicle, but check out this definition.

"A device for transporting persons or things"

A device that moves. That would be a THING, not a PLACE. The teleport spell is very specific about only teleporting to known or seen LOCATIONS. so, anything that isn't a place is right out.

"anywhere

\A"ny*where\, adv. In any place. --Udall"

notice it does not say in any thing. a thing like a vehicle.

So then I looked up "house", just to make sure it was a place, not a thing.
"A building that functions as the primary shelter or location of something"
Location being the big word there.
Because we are talking about defining nouns, all of us through high school know that a noun is a Person, Place, OR Thing. It can't be more then one of those things in the same sentence.

Here is my challenge. Find an instance where a vehicle that is moving can be defined as a "place" and not as a "thing." post your definition.

Remember, there is no way to have a noun be a thing AND a place in the same sentence. Now I will sit back with my poker face on.

Are you trying this again?

How about one of those rides at walmart where the thing moves but stays in the same place. Being stationary give it your place qualification but because it also transpors (simply moves the person from it's foward most position to its rear most) it would be a thing.

Maybe the internet... yeah it is a place and a thing it is still but always moving.

Now your turn. Remember that the way a dictionary works is if any of the definitions match then the item must be the word NOT if any of the possible definitions don't match then it isn't. Take note of 3, 6a & b,7,8 for Thing.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Thing
Thing can refer to either a moving or stationary object.

Now place. Take note of 5a. Oh damn only one fits, oh but never mind it's a dictionary and if one possible meaning fits then it is a viable deffinition. Oops 1a could also be taken to mean the area within the boundries set by the hull of any vehicle.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Place

Psi-hound wrote:Does your GM have a ruling on this?
What do they say?
And T-porting is always such an easy thing to take advantage of, I have to admit that whenever one of my players tries to use it in a way that seems to push the envelope, there is a tendency to squelch their use of it.

But I did allow one Shifter to use it this way:

Shifter took some serious damage, and his MDC body armor was falling apart around him. He'd taken cover and shaken himself out of the remainder of the burnt scraps. Nearly naked, he used T-port to pop himself into a fresh suit of light MD body armor he had on standby in a nearby APC. The spell, I reasoned, had more to do with the AFFINITY of the spot he wished to go to, I.E., how clearly he could see in his mind the space he wanted to occupy, and if he'd familiarized himself really well on that exact spot.

Since this PC had taken steps to suit up beforehand and get a feel for the suit, which he left strapped in place and empty, he clearly saw in his mind where he wanted to T-port to when he really needed to be there FAST.

Even when the APC moved, he was still familiar with the empty armor, the interior of the vehicle, and being suited up, sitting in place.

He met enough criteria for me to allow a port in this fashion, and in fact reward that PC for creative thinking ahead of time. If he hadn't done the preliminary familiarization, and had his suit rigged to recieve him, I'd have said no on his idea.

Even though the rules state otherwise for certain vehicles, etc., I chose to allow him to successfully 'port into his awaiting suit, inside a locked and sealed APC.

A GM can do that.
Perks of the job...

Zub zub. Although I'd normally still make them roll for success

Killer Cyborg wrote:

silverlb wrote:So, this cardboard box thing. Is it moving when the mage tries teleport? Am I to assume that you want to teleport into a MOVING vehicle?

The rules don't say anything about the vehicle being moving, so it doesn't really matter.

So I looked up "vehicle" on dictionary.com. your wheeled box could be a vehicle, but check out this definition.

"A device for transporting persons or things"

A device that moves. That would be a THING, not a PLACE.

Yes, a box is a thing.
Which is why you can't teleport into "box".
Of course, nobody is talking about that... we're talking about teleporting into "the inside of the box", which is a place.

I like that...I'd never actually want to teleport into the robot. What I'd wnat to do is teleport inside the robot. Exactly difference between thing and place. The earth after all is both.

silverlb wrote:Because we are talking about defining nouns, all of us through high school know that a noun is a Person, Place, OR Thing. It can't be more then one of those things in the same sentence.

Here is my challenge. Find an instance where a vehicle that is moving can be defined as a "place" and not as a "thing." post your definition.

Remember, there is no way to have a noun be a thing AND a place in the same sentence. Now I will sit back with my poker face on.

OK how about Earth or any planet. Here goes the same sentence thing.

The planet I live on travels around the sun. How about; the RV we live in rolled, when my dad took the corner too tight. Both meet the definition requirements for thing and place within the same sentence. Maybe you should think of it in Binary it's not an and it's not an xor it's an or which means that one, two or all three could be true. How all three? An AI giant Robot it is a "person" there is a place in it and it is a thing. Of course if you were a germ it could be a real person maybe like; I can only live on Bob when he's running.

There is one problem with your challenge nothing can be a place without being a thing however all things have their place. Even a solid cube has a place as a matter of fact six of them. If it doesn't how can you read the numbers on each side of your die?

Marcethus wrote:*sings* Its the thread that never ends it goes on and on my friends. *ends singing*

ok we have seen that no one will get anywhere on this since there is so little evidence either way. why not just drop the question and turn it to the ultimate authority. The GM of each game makes a ruling if the question comes up in his/her game.

Did it already probably around page 30

Killer Cyborg wrote:The only thing resembling a justification of the "mages can't teleport into Vehicles/Robots" theory is based entirely on sticking to the letter of the rules instead of the intent of the rules.

First, I am told that I adhere too closely to the letter of the rules (in my support of the “Can’t” side of this discussion).

Killer Cyborg wrote:So be consistant and stick to the letter of the rules.

Second, I am told that I should adhere more to the letter of the rules.

That’s contradictory. (Although I shouldn’t complain, because this particular contradiction supports my side of the discussion.)

Killer Cyborg wrote:No inserting "MDC" where it isn't mentioned.
If they meant MDC, they'd say MDC... just like certain spells say they can't penetrate "MDC armor".

You are absolutely correct. The BoM p.21 ruling doesn’t mention MDC or not. But if it doesn’t mean MDC, the rule collapses into a hopeless pile of rubble (see the previous posts discussing cardboard boxes, VW Beetle cars, and buildings; where the problems involved with including SDC structures into the rule are outlined).

RainOfSteel wrote:There is a difference. An MDC structure is made of "balonium" (remember, as I assert above, giant robots and vehicles, as mentioned under the BoM p.21 rule, are MDC). The cardboard box is not. MDC stops the passage of magic. (Yes, that last sentence is purely my own interpretation.) One must punch a hole in the MDC in order for magic to "get through".

Right here is where I note that it is my belief that the BoM p.21 ruling indicates MDC. My justification is as noted above in this post, the whole thing collapses into a vat of bad apples if SDC giant robots & vehicles are included.

RainOfSteel wrote:Also, one can waltz up to an MDC building, punch a hairline hole in the wall, and teleport in at will. One can also do this with an MDC vehicle, if, say, the external vents are open . . . which is why I personally also apply "environmentally sealed" to the rules-condition. (There, that's sufficiently different from rules to be an "opinion".)

Killer Cyborg wrote:According to the rules, a vehicle doesn't have to be environmentally sealed in order to keep magic in/out of it.

No, the rules don’t mention it, but check the topic title “Can one teleport into an environmentally sealed vehicle?” Why is “environmentally sealed” even mentioned if it isn’t an important factor? (Note: I personally believe it is an important factor, and never questioned the appearance of that particular condition of discussion in the topic title.)

Killer Cyborg wrote:You could be driving a car with all four windows down, and mages still couldn't cast spells out of it unless they hung half-way out of the window.

I can’t recall seeing that rule, could you cite a reference, please?