Wilks

[nilgravity]

Are there any books that talk more about wilks as a company? I know New West has a lot of info. Are there any other books I should look at?

[Mercdog]

Merc Ops and SB1 Revised each have a little bit of info on the company, IIRC.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Isn't Wilks actually a very loosely connected arm of the Black Market?

You're probably thinking Bandito arms.


As a side note, the CS has 'recently' (( In their time line, it was like 10 years ago ours)) Outlawed Wilks weaponry. I think it's in the CS book. They did so when they entered into their trade agreements with NG. (( Who secretly produces alot of CS gear))

So Wilks is up there with Naurni. Except Wilks stuff is just usually confiscated, and you might get fined, maybe smacked around a bit. ( I think there's a list of fines some where)) "Naurni" stuff gets you stripped, beaten and jailed at best, if not mowed down where you stand. The CS does not play around with them.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Isn't Wilks actually a very loosely connected arm of the Black Market?

You're probably thinking Bandito arms.


As a side note, the CS has 'recently' (( In their time line, it was like 10 years ago ours)) Outlawed Wilks weaponry. I think it's in the CS book. They did so when they entered into their trade agreements with NG. (( Who secretly produces alot of CS gear))

So Wilks is up there with Naurni. Except Wilks stuff is just usually confiscated, and you might get fined, maybe smacked around a bit. ( I think there's a list of fines some where)) "Naurni" stuff gets you stripped, beaten and jailed at best, if not mowed down where you stand. The CS does not play around with them.

Wait, Wilks produces a lot of electronics systems for the CS (IIRC if I remember correctly).

Well I did say 'Wilks Weaponry". Not their optics and medical tech and what not.

[nilgravity]

As a side note, the CS has 'recently' (( In their time line, it was like 10 years ago ours)) Outlawed Wilks weaponry. I think it's in the CS book. They did so when they entered into their trade agreements with NG. (( Who secretly produces alot of CS gear))

Can anyone confirm this? Which CS book?

[Seneca]

Source Book 1 Revised has this new CS policy. It is under the Wilk's equipment section pg 67

[Colt47]

Well, if Wilk's gets angry at the trade agreement they could stop selling components to Northern Gun and the CS, at which point the CS and NG are kind of in trouble. After all, they actually DEPEND on wilks for the laser weapon components. They can make their own, but they would be of inferior quality and likely would set back their weapons tech by a good decade.

Honestly the CS trying to outlaw wilks weapons is going to go over about as well as them trying to embargo Triax weapons, as in it is great reading material but doesn't really do much.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Isn't Wilks actually a very loosely connected arm of the Black Market?

You're probably thinking Bandito arms.


As a side note, the CS has 'recently' (( In their time line, it was like 10 years ago ours)) Outlawed Wilks weaponry. I think it's in the CS book. They did so when they entered into their trade agreements with NG. (( Who secretly produces alot of CS gear))

So Wilks is up there with Naurni. Except Wilks stuff is just usually confiscated, and you might get fined, maybe smacked around a bit. ( I think there's a list of fines some where)) "Naurni" stuff gets you stripped, beaten and jailed at best, if not mowed down where you stand. The CS does not play around with them.

Wait, Wilks produces a lot of electronics systems for the CS (IIRC if I remember correctly).

Well I did say 'Wilks Weaponry". Not their optics and medical tech and what not.

I don't think that the CS would be confiscating Wilks weapons though...

It's in the book guys. I didn't make it up. They are doing so partially to contain poliferation of MD weapons but mostly due to their 'New' ties with Northern Gun.

Source Book One, Revised: Page 67. Take a gander.


Edit: I see others have posted the page, but I was replying to posts to me in order. Sorry for redundancy.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well, if Wilk's gets angry at the trade agreement they could stop selling components to Northern Gun and the CS, at which point the CS and NG are kind of in trouble. After all, they actually DEPEND on wilks for the laser weapon components. They can make their own, but they would be of inferior quality and likely would set back their weapons tech by a good decade.

Honestly the CS trying to outlaw wilks weapons is going to go over about as well as them trying to embargo Triax weapons, as in it is great reading material but doesn't really do much.

Not really. It's showing that NG is catching up and surpassing Wilks in many areas. Yes Wilks still has good Lasers but NG has good lasers, and plasma, and rail guns ect ect ect, so does the CS. If Wilks goes and tries to black ball the CS, the CS just takes over Wilks by force and does what ever they want. A bit high handed but you don't mess with the military.

As for what it does, is give the CS more ability to interact with the PC's. And is the first baby step in demiliterizing the common folk. It'll take many more steps but they've outlawed with a death sentence on Naurani weapons. Wilks weapons now get taken and you get fines. There's only so many arms manufacturers in north America.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah. In SB1R it gives the Fine for each Wilks Weapon if you're found carrying it. It doesn't say, but I'd be willing to bet that they confiscate the weapon in addition to the fine.

And you're right Pepsi Jedi, I was thinking of Bandito Arms.

Um..... yes it does say. LOL

"All Wilk's weapons are outlawed in the Coalition States. If CS authorities find a Wilk's weapon on a human, the weapon will be confiscated by authorities, and the owner may be fined
1,000-10,000 credits depending on the circumstances upon which it was discovered and the type of weapon (concealed and heavy weapons get the greater fines). The person might also be "detained" and questioned. Depending on the specific Coalition law enforcement officers or soldiers involved, D-Bees can have all their possessions seized, and the D-Bee may be beaten and shot on the spot as an enemy of the States! Or he may be released with a fine or a warning."

Gotta read more than just weapon stats guys. It's almost a half a page of text explaining this before it gets to the guns.

[Shark_Force]

i'd say that policy is also pretty likely to get the CS soldiers shot too. it's a great way to make yourself the enemy of all humanity, who frankly are dependant on having weapons available to defend themselves.

[Pepsi Jedi]

i'd say that policy is also pretty likely to get the CS soldiers shot too. it's a great way to make yourself the enemy of all humanity, who frankly are dependant on having weapons available to defend themselves.

Really? You're going to shoot a a military with millions of troops because they wanna confiscate your gun? Or are you just going to buy Northern Gun Products?

I'm betting out side of guys sitting at a table with dice... people pass over the gun and buy a new one alot more than they take on a practically unlimited military force.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah. In SB1R it gives the Fine for each Wilks Weapon if you're found carrying it. It doesn't say, but I'd be willing to bet that they confiscate the weapon in addition to the fine.

And you're right Pepsi Jedi, I was thinking of Bandito Arms.

Um..... yes it does say. LOL

"All Wilk's weapons are outlawed in the Coalition States. If CS authorities find a Wilk's weapon on a human, the weapon will be confiscated by authorities, and the owner may be fined
1,000-10,000 credits depending on the circumstances upon which it was discovered and the type of weapon (concealed and heavy weapons get the greater fines). The person might also be "detained" and questioned. Depending on the specific Coalition law enforcement officers or soldiers involved, D-Bees can have all their possessions seized, and the D-Bee may be beaten and shot on the spot as an enemy of the States! Or he may be released with a fine or a warning."

Gotta read more than just weapon stats guys. It's almost a half a page of text explaining this before it gets to the guns.

Sorry. I just got the revised book a few days ago and have only skimmed it. Thanks for pointing it out. All I had read was the fines in the description.

No worries! It's a pretty decent book. Some weird Retacon in there but some good stuff too.

[Pepsi Jedi]

There's only so many arms manufacturers in north America.

Naruni has production facilities in North America, to this day.

And if you're keeping up, it's a death sentence to be found with one by the CS. You have to weigh the benefit of having a weapon, that's going to cause the biggest military on the continent to vaporize you on sight. Might be great against another Merc or a dinosaur, but if a military with millions of troops worth of backup sees you and turns you into a red mist, it might not be the best choice. All that distinctive Naruni styling, stands out.

My point was... Naruni weapons get you vaped on sight. Wilks weapons now get confiscated, you fined thousands of credits and maybe beaten. There's only so many others. It's not accidental.

[Pepsi Jedi]

And if you're keeping up, it's a death sentence to be found with one by the CS.
You have to weigh the benefit of having a weapon, that's going to cause the biggest
military on the continent to vaporize you on sight. Might be great against another
Merc or a dinosaur, but if a military with millions of troops worth of backup sees
you and turns you into a red mist, it might not be the best choice. All that distinctive
Naruni styling, stands out.

Naruni weapon's have undergone a style change, and now the Coalition can only visiually
look for the old style of Naruni weaponry. They have no idea what they are looking at
when it comes to the new style.

Is that in the book? Because when I GM the CS. They're not stupid. They have intelligence agents. They can figure out what the weapons look like by simply sending undercover agents to buy them. Or questioning a merc or someone caught with 'new' looking alien Gear. Part of Naruni's draw is the distinctive style. That and the unique ammo makes them real easy to pick out of a crowd.

And the biggest military on the continent, is nothing when sent out in platoon or less
sized groups, against the same size groups of naruni geared/equiped mercs.

Right, because lets play the CS as morons. "Hurm. there's 30 of them armed with super powered alien tech. Lets only send 30 guys. Sounds about right."

Are you serious? What kinda movie type storm trooper bouncing off the walls type of CS do you put in your games?? Why would the CS, who have MILLIONS of troops, ever, for the love of all that's holy, enter into a "Fair fight"? What kind of moron CS trooper would look at a group and go "30 of them, 30 of us. They are outfitted with Naruni gear.... we have CS Standard, which is really good for Rifts earth but are a bit under powered compared to the alien tech... sure.. lets get into a battle and see if we'll die." ?

Part of the reason the CS is so powerful, and so scary... is that they have these nifty little things called Radios... and they will call in enough people to take you out.

If you have a platoon sized element armed with Naruni gear... the CS will call in a Company. That's if they don't just call in artillery or Jets and then root among the craters to see if anyone's alive.

Most player groups aren't 26 to 50 players strong. You can surely be part of a bigger merc group. Many are, but again, are you going to take your 26 to 50 guys up against the CS? Do your CS seriously only match you man for man? Most especially if you've been spotted with the dreaded alien technology? No. The CS come with overwhelming force and ruin your day. They don't bring 26 men to fight your 26 men. They bring 100 to 150 men to fight your 26. Again, that's if they don't call in Artillery or an airstrike by fast movers. a CS talon can book it at Mach 1.5. Your guys on the ground with Naruni rifles are going to be in alot of trouble. Most especially if it just says out of range of your infantry weapons. the Sea-Striker rolls in at MACH 2.8, Shrike's move at 3.5, even the Dagger can move at Mach1.5. All that is canon stuff with out even touching the artillery from the Coalition Edge. If the CS is engaging a full platoon of outlaws armed with Naruni tech, they're not sending in just a few guys. If they spot a full Merc company armed with those weapons they'll come for you in force.

My point was... Naruni weapons get you vaped on sight. Wilks weapons now get confiscated,
you fined thousands of credits and maybe beaten. There's only so many others. It's not accidental.

Unless you vap them before they see you, and if your using the new style naruni wep's you have
nothing to worry about.

No, because even if they see you, Naurni weapons aren't going to take out units of CS before the CS gets off a transmission/Call. Then the CS comes for you. You might kill a squad.. you might kill a platoon if you're really good and have a merc Company, but the CS have more. They have bigger, and they have really bad tempers, and hold grudges. They also have the budget if they don't want to mess with you, to hire your merc friends to kill you for them. Bounties paid through third parties are easy for the CS to set up. And you are toast.

And the CS are also smart enough to notice new weapons firing Naruni ammo and to confiscate it and "Ask" the merc where he got it.. .if he dies.. they can ask his buddies... or if all they die.. the next group. Again. Millions of troops.

If nothing else, a Merc would make money by going to the CS and TELLING them about the Naruni new product line. (( as if they couldn't find out on their own)). It's well known the hat the CS has for them. A guy could get a big pay out if he found out about the new Naruni weapons and set up the CS to get a few. (( he'd need to be careful to not get himself taken in for question or vaped, but it'd be doable))

Page 21 of Naruni Wave two gives the warning that all weapons in the Catalog are banned in the CS and carry an instant death sentence. So... the CS know of all the weapons and stuff in the book.

I fully acknowledge that with like 50+ Rifts books I may have missed the part where the CS don't know about some Naruni stuff. Can you point it out to me please?

[Noon]

Isn't Wilks actually a very loosely connected arm of the Black Market?

As I recall its a legit arms dealer

How do you become a legit arms dealer in Rifts?

Do they pay taxes to someone?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Is that in the book? Because when I GM the CS. They're not stupid. They have intelligence agents.

They can figure out what the weapons look like by simply sending undercover agents to buy them.

Or questioning a merc or someone caught with 'new' looking alien Gear. Part of Naruni's draw is

the distinctive style. That and the unique ammo makes them real easy to pick out of a crowd.

In reality, the newly designed weapons look like standard SDC pistol's, revolvers' and shotguns.

So the "alien design" of which your speaking no longer holds any truth.

I'm afraid you're very much mistaken. You've taken less than one complete page in the entire book and are attributing it to all their weapons. Yes, they put out some gimmic weapons that look like SDC ones. All the fakes do the same damage and range ((200 ft??)) and are by and large inferior to the Naruni 'real' weapons. Some of them even melt if you use them for more than a minute.

The book is almost 100 pages. You've mistaken one and one third colum's for "All naruni weapons". It's just not so. (( If you care to look, it's page 28. Of the entire book. Then kust flip through the rest of the book at the dozens of others, that disprove your assumption.))

Questions for you are as follows.

Which book are the Military Intelligence agents from the Coalition found in ? I've scoured my own
books as well as my daughter's and my husbands, (over 250 books in all) and have yet to find a single
refrence to a military intelligence officer.

There's not 250 Rifts books. Unless you're looking through the same one multiple times. With out getting up and going to the shelf, I'd say there's less than 100 rifts titles total. But to answer your question. RUE: Page 235: Coalition Military Specialist: First line of the OCC description: The arts of espionage, intelligence gathering and reconnaissance are the halmarks of the Coalition Military Specialist" Then if you look to their skills, you'll note Intelligence in the skill line up, then in their OOC skill selection you'll notice their esipionage dedicated with their progressive skills having to come from there too.



Hope that helps. They're in the core book. Right after "CS Grunt." and Samus pilot.

Right, because lets play the CS as morons. "Hurm. there's 30 of them armed with super powered
alien tech. Lets only send 30 guys. Sounds about right."

That is exactly how the CS are portrayed in the books, they think they are more then a match for
anyone of equal size or less then their own units, and in some cases even the special ops think
they are more then a match for bands many times their own size.

Well, 1) the CS does sometimes show a wide variance of behavior, but by and large they're represented as a massive military that's feared and for good reason. They are shown as using overwhelming odds and trouncing anyone and everyone they get in fights with. 2) Some of the CS are better and more than a match for bands many times their own size, but you were stipulating equal numbers of mercs outfitted with advanced, best in the three galaxy's weapons. Weapons so dangerous that there's a "Kill on sight" order for anyone having them. That's not just a band of brigands on the side of the road.

Guess you play them outta context with how they are portrayed in the canon books. (Home rules)

No. I really don't. I play them as a military to be feared and one that uses military tactics, the radio, superior numbers, superior weaponry, surperior logistics and ability. Very few places will you find that people think the CS are push overs, IN GAME. I will say about half the people that PLAY, seem to think they're black clad loot pinata's, but I've never played them that way. They're dangerous and a threat and if you antagonize a military with their resources and more over, their mentality, they'll mess you up. Hard.

Most player groups aren't 26 to 50 players strong. You can surely be part of a bigger merc
group. Many are, but again, are you going to take your 26 to 50 guys up against the CS? Do
your CS seriously only match you man for man? Most especially if you've been spotted with
the dreaded alien technology? No. The CS come with overwhelming force and ruin your day. They
don't bring 26 men to fight your 26 men. They bring 100 to 150 men to fight your 26.

Facts are facts, equal sized units do go against each other all the time,

You say it's a fact. Can you show me this fact in the book? Even against tolkeen, the CS had clear numerical surperiority. Where in the books is this 'fact'? Please show me the FACT that this is stated. You've claimed to have two hundred and fifty rifts books.

and in this case
if the merc's the CS are going up against are fully equiped by naruni gear, they are part of
something much larger then the Coalition would think they are, and as such they would utterly
and easily dispatch anything the CS would send out at them.

No. Only if the CS were stupid. If I'm GMing the game and my CS rangers come across some merc group, all outfitted with expensive, super high tech weaponry, my rangers aren't so utterly brain dead as to engage a superior force. They withdraw, disengage, and when it's safe, send secure transmission to base, giving cordinates, numbers, and other important details to the criminals (( Death sentence for having the weapons stipulates that possession of such, marks them as criminals.)) then my rangers likely trail the merc group, or observe from distance to help vector in the attacking force, which will, with the recon intelligence gathered by the Rangers, or long range patrol, be more than a match for what ever Merc group has been observed.

The presence of said illegal weaponry, indicates an elevated threat level of the group, and if the entire group is outfitted thusly, an even more elevated threat level. I.E. If they can 1) Afford all those Naruni weapons and 2) All the people in the group have them. they are dangerous. The CS doesn't use a water gun to take on a rhino buffalo. They're the other way around. When it comes to their enemies, the CS prefers the ol "Grenade launcher vs the fly" sort of reaction.

Why would the CS see dangerous alien weapons and then underestimate their foes? That's just stupid. My 12 year old knows better than that. Why would a trained military that makes all other nations in the America's quake in fear, be so utterly stupid?

And lets face facts if the Coalition decided to send in an entire armed corp against a company
sized merc unit, because that merc unit just destroyed everything sent up against them so far
that makes the Coalition look exactly how they are portrayed in the books.

Well, 1) you're jumping levels now. You've moved up from player characters, to Platoon sized, and now you've moved your mercs up to company sized and an entire armed corp of CS troops. You're sort of moving around what we're talking about. 2) If the CS found an entire company sized element fully decked out in Naruni gear, yes, they'd take them out. Depending on how many people, would depend on the size of the responce. It's nothing for the CS to load up a few Death's head transports and go put boot to ass. That's again, part of what makes them so scary. That they can do that. You're Company sized element is spotted and scouted by the rangers or long range patrols. Intelligence is gathered. This is relayed up the chain of command. First comes the air strikes by the super sonic jets and bombers. Then come in the "Medium fast" air units. be they samus or Rocket bikes to strafe what was left and overview the damage done by the bombers. Then perhaps Skelebot ground forces if needed, then if still needed you can zip in on some Death's head transports and offload tons of men in little time and effort for cleanup.

Then all be home in time to watch tv and get chow. That's if they just totally want to smash the mercs. A Company sized element is 50 to 190 men. One DHT can hold 384 troops and a spider skull walker. That's if they don't bring along the APCs and URA1's. So very likely one Death's Head Transport, it's weapons and the troops inside is going to be able to take out a company sized merc unit. Even if they have Naruni gear. But the CS aren't just going to roll out infantry with no air support, PA support, Sky cycle support, dog pack support, ect.

Most especially if the CS use any tactics what so ever other than 'stand in a line and shoot'. Which for the sake of argument and them being a 'military' we can say they will.

If you mean 'Merc company' as in an organization, well it'd depend on how many troops they had and their make up.

Again, I don't think you're playing the CS as a military. You're kinda having them act like storm troopers who took off running down the hall as Han Solo chased them screaming and shooting his blaster in the air.

Again, that's if they don't call in Artillery or an airstrike by fast movers. a CS talon can
book it at Mach 1.5. Your guys on the ground with Naruni rifles are going to be in alot of trouble.
Most especially if it just says out of range of your infantry weapons. the Sea-Striker rolls in at
MACH 2.8, Shrike's move at 3.5, even the Dagger can move at Mach1.5.

Several things.

A.
How would they be able to track the merc units (at distence)when they are geared in Stealth
Power Armor ?

So now, not only do they have Naruni weapons but the ultra expensive stealth power armor, enough to outfit the entire company? lol You wanna give um a battle ship too?

They still have to sleep. They still have to eat. They still have to poop. They still have to get out of the armor and live. The CS has recon units, rangers, UAE's, skelebot patrols, dog boys, psi stalkers, psionics, mind melters, jets, flying power armor. Ect all day long.

B.
NE-A400 is able to dispatch anything the CS could throw at them.

Now you've gone from a group of player char's, to mercs, to player char's in charge of a merc army big enough and rich enough to have steal power armor, and now to one big enough to have a drone airforce with $45,000,000 drones? They're not bad jets, but the CS has faster ones.. and the CS will have more. Even the biggest merc group on earth using Naruni weaponry doesn't have that sort of firepower. Your NE-A400 might take down one, two, CS Jets. Maybe 3. But the other 10 jets will converge fire on it and blow it out of the sky.

Again. They're a military of millions with multi billion dollar budgets.

Should they need an aerial denial
weapon system. For anything the drone could not get, the Broadsword Delta wing would easily dispatch.

No, because even if they see you, Naurni weapons aren't going to take out units of CS before the CS
gets off a transmission/Call.

Unless, this naruni geared merc unit makes its living off of dealing out hardcore CS ambushes and complete
destruction of Coalition units.

Which wouldn't happen. They might get away with an ambush or two. The CS loosing troops would escalate far faster and more severely than the merc group could keep up with. Again, your theory only works if the CS are complete fools and don't just smash your merc group into atoms. It also only works if your merc group some how starts off huge and with unlimited funds to BUY all this expensive gear, have a way to find it, and indeed buy it, with out getting caught, and then a way to resupply a unit that size when engaged with a military that literaly numbers in the millions.

If you make your 'living" Dealing out hardcore CS ambushes, your life will be measured in days, if not hours.

And no radio the CS has range long enough to reach Coalition territory from every spot the CS has troops in.

They don't have to reach Chi-town. They just have to reach the closest base or repeater station. Or the closest air C.A.P.

Again, Red, MILITARY. yes there are small long range units. You might prey on one or two of them. A squad here... a fire team there... a couple of rangers here, a dog pack there... but when you go after the CS it self and start costing them troops and money, they kill you. They can mobalize and push forward with vast amounts of troops and equipment the likes of which the biggest Merc groups can only dream. You don't send out units with out a means of communication or calling for backup. Can you pick off a few long range scouts? Yeah. But bigger than that and their back up is going to be nearby, and it's gonna be bigger than you. If not, THEIR back up will be.

So unless your using non canon stuff, sorry but thats stretching the capabilities of the Coalition.

No. I'm going off Canon stuff. I just don't treat them like morons. A military with no means to radio in or call for back up is stupid. Extending units out so far they couldn't be backed up. Stupid. Having no intelligence officers, or intelligence gathering ability, stupid. Getting into fights "One on one" when you have a military of Millions. Stupid. Getting in fights with people with superior arms and armor, when you can just call in overwhelming force. Stupid. I don't see the CS Military as stupid. Nor do I portray them that way in my games. I portray them as a military to be feared. I know this is not universal, and from what you've said your game is nothing like mine. I fully see that about half the people on the forums treat the CS as an easy way to get loot and never challenge their players with them. Never give them tactics or ability's a military would have. there's been threads that have gone on for pages with people claiming that's all their group did when they needed lunch money. Go take out a CS platoon, loot um and sell the gear. As if the CS would never hunt them down and kill them in their sleep. Different people have fun with different games I guess. I personally like Mutant animals and play them alot. Far more than I would humans. Some people are the opposite. They'd never play a mutant, and always play humans. Some do both. Some play the CS as morons that just stand there and shoot once per melee, never take cover. Never use tactics. Never radio for back up. Some others, play them as military, with the benefit of full environmental armor, radios in each suit, weapons and gear that makes each trooper the equivalent of a modern day tank and that's before you add in the power armor and robots and tanks and jets.

The thing is, the book shows the CS as the Military all the rest fear. Not as the one they all laugh at for being so stupid they can't tie their own shoes.

Have there been INSTANCES of people in the CS being stupid? Yes. But is the CS as a whole explained that way? no. They're shown to be respected, and feared above all others in NA. There's a reason for that.

(( If there's spelling or grammar errors, I apoligise. Wrote this at 6:30 am, before going to bed. I'm a lil bit groggy. Hopefully it's not too bad)

[Looonatic]

This same old argument is all done with lasers.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm afraid you're very much mistaken. You've taken less than one complete
page in the entire book and are attributing it to all their weapons.

Your very much mistaken, You've applied what I stated to encompass everything they
produce. I mearly stated they in fact have created a new line of weaponry that in fact
does not resemble the standard naruni stuff, which makes visual detection impossible.

Those are gimmic weapons. And they're not that good. Again some of them will melt if you use them for more than a minute. Your posts read as ALL The new weapons are like that. It's not true. It's less than one page of gimmic weapons that don't pertain to the conversation.

There's not 250 Rifts books. Unless you're looking through the same one multiple times.

Yes, I've flipped threw my daughters books, and my husbands books.

So you flipped through books two or three times and missed the OCC in the main book? Again I don't have a list infront of me but I think there's only 85 -95 Rifts books total. Surely not 250.

Well, 1) the CS does sometimes show a wide variance of behavior, but by and large
they're represented as a massive military that's feared and for good reason.

For the largest picture available of them yes.

They are shown as using overwhelming odds and trouncing anyone and everyone
they get in fights with.

They did not trounce Tolkeen, who is literally 1/10th (bere minimum) the size of the
Coalition's states. So guess they do not trounce everyone they get into fights with as per
your own claim.

You need to buy some more books. The CS did indeed trounce them. It took a while and the CS Suffered their first set back in years at the Sorcerers revenge, but in the end, yes the CS Trounced them. Tolkeen is obliterated and it's city in rubble. It's demonic armies scattered and destroyed, it's other armies shattered and scattered. Refugees fleeing to all points in the compass. The city is dead and gone, other than a few bitter rebels in the woods.

And the CS.... sitting pretty. They have to replace their navy but they didn't lose that to tolkeen.

Going up against a same size military, as they send out (FQ scenario) they lost.

1 they didn't lose against FQ
2 They are again allies with FQ
3 Their navy, didn't win against FQ, but concidering over half of their navy WAS FQ, it's not that surprising. The CS wasn't "ALL IN" In the war with FQ. It was a civil war. They had not trounced them as of yet, but they hadn't full out tried to either. It was still in border skirmish stages. They surely hadn't lost.

2) Some of the CS are better and more than a match for bands many times their own size

Name 1. And the EXTREAMLY, limited scenario in which they would be more then a match
for a band many many times their size. And given the same tech levels.

You keep adding stipulations to try and make your point valid. Part of the reason the CS is better and more than a match larger than themselves at time is because they have better tech. You seem to think that they're going up against the Megaversal legion all the time. They're not. The CS is better equipped than 90%+ than the people they are fighting. They are the technological surperior force in NA. So yeah, against groups larger than their unit size who have inferior weapons they win. Bandits, Raiders, ect. They all lose against the CS, because they don't all have multi billion dollar armies and equipment.

They're dangerous and a threat and if you antagonize a military with their resources
and more over, their mentality, they'll mess you up. Hard.

They are only dangerous if they over number you. And you have no tech of your own.

Then your GM sucks. I guarantee you, in games where the CS are protrayed as real military, they're dangerous in general. They out number you on purpose. Again, what sort of idiot would get in a 'fair fight'. Fair fights are STUPID. In a 'Fair fight" you have ann equal chance to lose. Why would anyone ever purposefuly do that if they had other options? 50/50 odds? Not me. I'm going to stack the deck as much as I can. on purpose. So I'll win. So would anyone with half a brain. Again you're trying to impose stipulations on the CS that aren't there.

"OH well.. we can win... if we out number them... and they're not allowed to call in back up.. or air support, and don't use tactics.... and and and... " Well yeah if you hobble them in your equations you can stack it your way. Thing is the CS as written, are the other way. The deck is stacked for them. As they're a giant military. It's supposed to be that way.

Even if your mercs out number the CS, the CS can still be dangerous. As pointed out, they can always radio in back up. Or they can be smart and engage in hit and run against you. Nothing says they HAVE to wage stand up knock down fights. the CS have special forces units, they have commandos, they have rangers.

Given the same number of troops and same tech level, opponant's They lose. (Again FQ situation)

No, Given same number of troops (Silly) and same tech level (( Mighty powerful mercs there)) They hhit at 50/50. Then it depends on how they play. Who's smarter and who uses their ability and tech better. That depends on your GM. I'd say if you went up against my CS, you'd get a much different difficulty level than the ones you've encountered if you belive them to be so weak.

You say it's a fact. Can you show me this fact in the book? Even against tolkeen,
the CS had clear numerical surperiority. Where in the books is this 'fact'? Please
show me the FACT that this is stated. You've claimed to have two hundred and fifty
rifts books.

Aftermath, when the General wanted to attack the flee'ing refugee's (none military
personell) and Drogue got beligerent with him. To not attack. Nearly the same size
bands, same tech level, and the CS knew better not to attack even tho there were
military personell in with the refugee's escorting them.

Not true. it wasn't a 'same tech level'. It was an army of frigging juicers. LOL The JAL is going to be better than some infantry. As pointed out in the situation you're trying to describe.

Nice try though. You didn't QUITE lie, but you sure bent a bit. "though there were military personel with the refugees escourting them" Yeah, the ENTIRE Juicer Army of Liberation. lol. An army of juicers vs units of Regular CS infantry aren't equal. And... not for nothing, but the CS didn't attack. Brains won out. Sure, it was an evil brain at that point, but they still didn't attack an army of Juicers unsupported.

So the army of juicers vs a detachment of CS (( Not the entire CS army)) Is not 'equal'. Nor is it "All the time".

My apologies, you may not have this book. But if you do, then clearly you know
what I am refrencing.

I have all the books. And I know what you're referencing and obfuscating. Acting like the JAL is just ann equal number of troops is purposeful evasion there.

Well, 1) you're jumping levels now. You've moved up from player characters, to
Platoon sized, and now you've moved your mercs up to company sized and an entire
armed corp of CS troops.

I've clearly stated, anyone with this type of hardwear is going to be part of something
not normally seen. If you take issue to that dont post ?

You're just jacking up levels to try and make your argument. You've level jumped a few times in that one post. Still not valid.

Intelligence is gathered. This is relayed up the chain of command.

They must have instant gathering techniques included into instant relay radio's that
go from ranger to the top. Because as you portray them thats exactly what they have.

They don't have to go to the top. They just have to go to the local commander. Who then makes the call. Not every engagement has to get approval from Chi Town. They have standard operating procedure and rules of engagement, with large on scene digression to local commanders.

Could you cite a book for this instant relay of information ?

It's a radio. All CS armor has it. Page 100 CS War machine.

So now, not only do they have Naruni weapons but the ultra expensive stealth power armor,
enough to outfit the entire company? lol You wanna give um a battle ship too?

And ? No a Battleship is not something that is mobile enough to use I've checked.

Ahhh so your point is, that if you give them unlimited funding and unlimited alien gear they can put up a decent fight? Sure.

Thankfully no one has either unlimited funds or unlimited alien gear. So it's a moot point. The Naruni that ARE on earth are doing stuff against orders. They've been told to drop it. It's not like the full force of the Company is being brought to bare.

Your NE-A400 might take down one, two, CS Jets. Maybe 3. But the other 10 jets will
converge fire on it and blow it out of the sky.

And the more they down, (which is more then you care to admit) the harder it will be
for the Coalition to warrent putting more an more an more soilders at risk against clearly
a superior force.

No. because your mercs are not going to be big enough to be Superior. That's what you're missing. the CS has an army of millions. No Merc Company can take them on. They don't have the resources. The more fight you put up, the more the CS is going to pour into you to destroy you. They're not gonna slink off. Can you drive off some units if you're good. But they're gonna come back with enough back up to ruin you. The CS isn't going to take a beating and run away. Not as a whole. With overwhelming force you might drive back a platoon or something but then they'll call in back up and you're a red mist. Just like 400 black water personell might be able to drive back 30 or 100 US army troops, but then the army brings it's weight to bare and your 400 blackwater are obliterated and then the rest of the company as well. With LITTLE effort.

Again, your theory only works if the CS are complete fools and don't just smash your
merc group into atoms.

You've already attempted to track the merc grp yet you can not even find them according to
their armor's write up you as a Coalition troop can not track them period. Yet you have clearly
ignored that little fact.

Because you can't live in armor 24/7. I didn't ignore that fact. I pointed out you gotta sleep sometime. You gotta eat some time. You gotta come out of the armor to crap some time. A big merc unit leaves a big footprint, they need resupply. They're not that hard to track. All that Naruni stuff you're using uses naruni ammo which isn't on every shelf across the nation. There's only so many places to resupply. You also have to eat. You have to live. You're ignoring all that. And the CS has the resources. They can put out money rewards. "1,000 credits to call us on the radio the next time this Merc group rolls into town.... and... a new laser rifle" They can do this 500 ways.

They don't have to reach Chi-town. They just have to reach the closest base or repeater station.
Or the closest air C.A.P.

Books please that show the stats of the repeater stations and the air C.A.P. please ?

You want stats of a radio antenna? Or do I need to point out the stats for the CS air forces? Coalition War Campaign. The flying power armor. The sky cycles, the jets. There's more jets and such in CS navy as well. If you need page numbers, I can provide them, but you claim to have over two time the number of books published. Surely they're in there.

They can mobalize and push forward with vast amounts of troops and equipment the likes of
which the biggest Merc groups can only dream.

And against a stationary target like say a City state that is a very powerful tool. You seem
to want to be able to do that against merc militaries, thats just not going to work.

Death's Head Transports. Why will air mobile units not work exactly? They have massive forward deployment ability. Hell they've deployed 30,000 troops to Europe to lend the NGR a hand. That's with out getting into the Firestorm. (CWC 158)

If it did we would not have such people as the Colonel who not only broke away from the CS military
but took many people with him and alotta Hardware, And yet for some reason unknown, the CS us unable
to capture this figure.


I wonder why ? Do you have any idea's ?

It's not unkown, it's directly stated. They COULD. They choose not to, for PR reasons. it's right there in direct statements in the writeup. It's better to spin it and use him as good PR than it is to level him and get bad PR. They could do it. it'd be expensive but they could do it. Larsen doesn't go toe to toe with the CS. (( he was gonna but got tied down in Calgary)) So they play him up as a national hero.

The thing is, the book shows the CS as the Military all the rest fear. Not as the one they all
laugh at for being so stupid they can't tie their own shoes.

The reason they are feared is because the Author's do not allow the entire N.A. civilization to
band together for mutually assured exsistence.

Such as who? Many of the nations that "Might" are led by evil or at least selfish people. Those that aren't, and are 'good' dont' want to kill millions of humans.

They rather have the other people be stupid enough
to never want to do such a thing when doing so would curtail the coalition military and it would
stop them dead in their tracks.

In the books, the reasons stated that the other magical kingdoms DIDN'T Help out Tolkeen were many, but more than once it was stated that even united, they would STILL lose against the CS, and just more people would die.

If you start a 'world war' to take out the CS you could probably do it. But people rarely work that way. Who all CAN you get to try and take out the CS? With out having Atlantis face roll it, who could?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pepsi Jedi

It appears that you do not run your coalition as portrayed in the books. But that is good to each his own. But you can not claim something as canon such as the way you portray your Coalition, when the books do not support your claim.

But I like the way you run your Coalition.

The books claim that the Coalition is a dangerous military, feared in he US and beyond. I play them as such. Not moronic loot bags painted black.

[nilgravity]

Of all the threads to flame out...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Of all the threads to flame out...

In before the warning or lock........
Wilks is nice and to think about it, my CS characters would get shot for some the stuff they carry around me-75h with a gravity radar attachment, just sounds scary as could be.

[Shark_Force]

this is nonsense. the CS does not have unlimited troops to send 100+ soldiers after every single 25-person squad to hunt them down for using weapons they don't like.

if they find this squad has naruni weapons at all, it is likely by a patrol randomly walking into them. now, the CS doesn't send out 100+ person patrols.

therefore, their policies are going to get those who choose to use superior weapons (and having an inferior weapon can and often will get you killed anyways, so just because some stupid jerk decides you're "not allowed" to use the best weapon doesn't mean you're going to listen) to shoot at them on sight, because you cannot afford to not shoot on sight. if you let the CS search you, you lose a huge amount of assets (yeah, laser rifles don't *sound* expensive, until you consider how much it costs to buy enough for a small mercenary unit compared to that small mercenary unit's budget), and you are going to be left unarmed - without the tools of your trade.

now, can the CS enforce that law in the 'burbs? probably. mostly at least. lots of illegal stuff happens in the 'burbs all the time. can they enforce it everywhere? not even close. they may not even have equal numbers in many of the situations where.

at least with the naruni corporation they could justify it with the fact that naruni are not only painted as horrible monsters, they are, in fact, in at least some ways, truly horrible monsters.

what the hell are you going to use to justify outlawing wilks? "we don't like them because they aren't grovelling on their knees before us" isn't exactly good PR.

a stupid move like that should get the CS on a lot of people's KOS lists. no, not in CS 'burbs. but the CS doesn't stay in the 'burbs. they don't even stay in their territory. they're constantly sticking their noses into everyone else's business. and when you're doing that, and you decide to try and steal those people's livelihoods and the only things allowing them to defend themselves from literal demons and monsters, just because you decided arbitrarily that nobody should be allowed to use them, whether or not they're in your territory, you are going to get shot.

given a choice between having the tools they need to earn money taken away and then not being able to replace them because they can't earn money, or fighting, how do you think people are going to respond? given a choice between letting someone steal the only weapon you have to keep your family alive and fighting, what do you think the people anywhere else are going to respond? a farmer or hunter can't just go down to the store and shell out 25,000 credits willy-nilly just because some douchebag decided one day that it isn't allowed. a mercenary company isn't going to be rolling in cash either - if they were, they would probably be retired someplace nice instead of risking their necks all the time.

if the CS decides they're going to be a complete and utter ******* just because they can, in ways that destroy people's lives and livelihoods, they are going to get shot at. a lot.

i bet the troops that are supposed to enforce this moronic rule aren't going to like it either, because it's really damned hard to justify stealing things just to be an ass when you consider yourself a protector of humanity. it won't get enforced on merc squads unless the CS happens to actually, by pure coincidence, have a massively superior force right there... and it won't get enforced on random farmers and other people, because the soldiers are (or so we keep being told) not a bunch of sadistic murderers who get their jolleys out of destroying people's lives.

[nilgravity]

That's true they are more likely to enforce a dumb rule when a lone city rat or vagabond breaks it than when a company of mercs rolls through. It's sort of like how prosecutors won't go after the rich guy with all the lawyers as fast as he will the poor person with the public defender.

[masslegion]

this is nonsense. the CS does not have unlimited troops to send 100+ soldiers after every single 25-person squad to hunt them down for using weapons they don't like.

if they find this squad has naruni weapons at all, it is likely by a patrol randomly walking into them. now, the CS doesn't send out 100+ person patrols.

therefore, their policies are going to get those who choose to use superior weapons (and having an inferior weapon can and often will get you killed anyways, so just because some stupid jerk decides you're "not allowed" to use the best weapon doesn't mean you're going to listen) to shoot at them on sight, because you cannot afford to not shoot on sight. if you let the CS search you, you lose a huge amount of assets (yeah, laser rifles don't *sound* expensive, until you consider how much it costs to buy enough for a small mercenary unit compared to that small mercenary unit's budget), and you are going to be left unarmed - without the tools of your trade.

now, can the CS enforce that law in the 'burbs? probably. mostly at least. lots of illegal stuff happens in the 'burbs all the time. can they enforce it everywhere? not even close. they may not even have equal numbers in many of the situations where.

at least with the naruni corporation they could justify it with the fact that naruni are not only painted as horrible monsters, they are, in fact, in at least some ways, truly horrible monsters.

what the hell are you going to use to justify outlawing wilks? "we don't like them because they aren't grovelling on their knees before us" isn't exactly good PR.

a stupid move like that should get the CS on a lot of people's KOS lists. no, not in CS 'burbs. but the CS doesn't stay in the 'burbs. they don't even stay in their territory. they're constantly sticking their noses into everyone else's business. and when you're doing that, and you decide to try and steal those people's livelihoods and the only things allowing them to defend themselves from literal demons and monsters, just because you decided arbitrarily that nobody should be allowed to use them, whether or not they're in your territory, you are going to get shot.

given a choice between having the tools they need to earn money taken away and then not being able to replace them because they can't earn money, or fighting, how do you think people are going to respond? given a choice between letting someone steal the only weapon you have to keep your family alive and fighting, what do you think the people anywhere else are going to respond? a farmer or hunter can't just go down to the store and shell out 25,000 credits willy-nilly just because some douchebag decided one day that it isn't allowed. a mercenary company isn't going to be rolling in cash either - if they were, they would probably be retired someplace nice instead of risking their necks all the time.

if the CS decides they're going to be a complete and utter ******* just because they can, in ways that destroy people's lives and livelihoods, they are going to get shot at. a lot.

i bet the troops that are supposed to enforce this moronic rule aren't going to like it either, because it's really damned hard to justify stealing things just to be an ass when you consider yourself a protector of humanity. it won't get enforced on merc squads unless the CS happens to actually, by pure coincidence, have a massively superior force right there... and it won't get enforced on random farmers and other people, because the soldiers are (or so we keep being told) not a bunch of sadistic murderers who get their jolleys out of destroying people's lives.

Having MD weapons for a merc company is not just about $$$, but more importantly it is about survival. Unarmed merc companies are just as vulnerable to supernatural menaces as unarmed farmers.

[Shark_Force]

Having MD weapons for a merc company is not just about $$$, but more importantly it is about survival. Unarmed merc companies are just as vulnerable to supernatural menaces as unarmed farmers.

merc companies would still have armor, and they probably aren't universally equipped exclusively with wilks weapons. you're still screwing them over royally and pretty much financially ruining the company most likely, but they're not nearly as defenseless as a farmer would be in that situation.

(that said, the mercenaries fight for a living, so again... i fully expect them to start shooting unless the CS actually does happen to have overwhelming force in the right place at the right time with no possible way for the company to hide or escape).

but definitely, the point remains that the CS has essentially declared themselves an openly hostile force to pretty much everyone unless that rule is restricted to the CS 'burbs or something like that.

[Nightmask]

Having MD weapons for a merc company is not just about $$$, but more importantly it is about survival. Unarmed merc companies are just as vulnerable to supernatural menaces as unarmed farmers.

merc companies would still have armor, and they probably aren't universally equipped exclusively with wilks weapons. you're still screwing them over royally and pretty much financially ruining the company most likely, but they're not nearly as defenseless as a farmer would be in that situation.

(that said, the mercenaries fight for a living, so again... i fully expect them to start shooting unless the CS actually does happen to have overwhelming force in the right place at the right time with no possible way for the company to hide or escape).

but definitely, the point remains that the CS has essentially declared themselves an openly hostile force to pretty much everyone unless that rule is restricted to the CS 'burbs or something like that.

When hasn't the CS declared itself an openly hostile force to pretty much everyone? That's one of the key aspects of their evil, they go after pretty much anyone and everyone for the most ridiculous reasons. In a way it's like they have an awareness of the 4th wall and know that omnipotent god (Kevin) will protect them from their actions coming back to bite them.

[DhAkael]

Well, if Wilk's gets angry at the trade agreement they could stop selling components to Northern Gun and the CS, at which point the CS and NG are kind of in trouble. After all, they actually DEPEND on wilks for the laser weapon components. They can make their own, but they would be of inferior quality and likely would set back their weapons tech by a good decade.

Honestly the CS trying to outlaw wilks weapons is going to go over about as well as them trying to embargo Triax weapons, as in it is great reading material but doesn't really do much.

Yeah... and also remember; it is Kevin "I am George Lucas's illigitimate brother" Siembiada's way of making sure his script immunity for the CS remains inviloate in canon.
Personally I just have it that Wilks weapons are never sold to any "civilians" within CS borders.
Military specialists and scouts can own as many as they want.
Any merc's working under CS charter can go suck it if they need to buy replacements. OWN the weapons? Sure. Buy new ones? Aint happening under Big-Daddy Prosseks' watch.
That is IF you want to play with KS's canon.
Which I don't 99.997% of the time.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well, if Wilk's gets angry at the trade agreement they could stop selling components to Northern Gun and the CS, at which point the CS and NG are kind of in trouble. After all, they actually DEPEND on wilks for the laser weapon components. They can make their own, but they would be of inferior quality and likely would set back their weapons tech by a good decade.

Honestly the CS trying to outlaw wilks weapons is going to go over about as well as them trying to embargo Triax weapons, as in it is great reading material but doesn't really do much.

Yeah... and also remember; it is Kevin "I am George Lucas's illigitimate brother" Siembiada's way of making sure his script immunity for the CS remains inviloate in canon.
Personally I just have it that Wilks weapons are never sold to any "civilians" within CS borders.
Military specialists and scouts can own as many as they want.
Any merc's working under CS charter can go suck it if they need to buy replacements. OWN the weapons? Sure. Buy new ones? Aint happening under Big-Daddy Prosseks' watch.
That is IF you want to play with KS's canon.
Which I don't 99.997% of the time.

True it does get kinda boring after awhile

[Pepsi Jedi]

this is nonsense. the CS does not have unlimited troops to send 100+ soldiers after every single 25-person squad to hunt them down for using weapons they don't like.

Actually the CS DOES have the numbers to do so if they like. That's the thing. They have millions of troops. They're doing stuff with them. They're not all sitting around makin' rap songs or lounging in barracks. They're out doing stuff. The converse is even more true. There's not THAT MANY groups of people with Naruni weapons. So it's not that hard to send people after the ones that have them. much less groups of 25 people meandering around with ultra high tech alien military grade weaponry

if they find this squad has naruni weapons at all, it is likely by a patrol randomly walking into them. now, the CS doesn't send out 100+ person patrols.

Have you seen Black Market and the patrols there? You can find anything from a pair of rangers up to 40 Skelebots, to a Death's head transport with full load out, all the way up to a full scale military exercise. Mechinized patrols, air patrols. It goes on ffor FIVE PAGES of different make ups of patrols you can run into. Right up to "Strike force" which it says seeks out and destroy's enemy, or criminal camps, smuggler caravans and related targets.... Like 25 guys with naruni gear. (( A camp of criminals highly armed)) Said strike force are "fast, effective and rutthless" leaving few alive to counterattack, and move in groups of up to 160.

So... Not only are you way wrong, but they have patrols for the --express purpose-- of doing it, that are bigger than 100 people. And it's canon. (( Pages 56-60, black market))

therefore, their policies are going to get those who choose to use superior weapons (and having an inferior weapon can and often will get you killed anyways, so just because some stupid jerk decides you're "not allowed" to use the best weapon doesn't mean you're going to listen) to shoot at them on sight, because you cannot afford to not shoot on sight. if you let the CS search you, you lose a huge amount of assets (yeah, laser rifles don't *sound* expensive, until you consider how much it costs to buy enough for a small mercenary unit compared to that small mercenary unit's budget), and you are going to be left unarmed - without the tools of your trade.

So your point is what? If they shoot at the CS the CS will kill them? Well... .yeah....

now, can the CS enforce that law in the 'burbs? probably. mostly at least. lots of illegal stuff happens in the 'burbs all the time. can they enforce it everywhere? not even close. they may not even have equal numbers in many of the situations where.

It's not that they have UNIVERSAL coverage. It's that the CS has a long reach and if you happen to run into them.... anywhere..... that's where the CS Law extends to (( In the CS Eyes)) So if they catch you and you have the Naruni weapons, you're killed on the spot. Or, if the CS unit that sees them doesn't have the power, they call in assistance to do the killing. 4 Rangers aren't going to jump in lasers blasting against a group of 25 mercs armed with Naruni gear... but they will call in an air strike. Or a power armor wing. Or a mark 5 with all it's troops.

at least with the naruni corporation they could justify it with the fact that naruni are not only painted as horrible monsters, they are, in fact, in at least some ways, truly horrible monsters.

That's the thing. the CS has already done this and "Kicked them off earth" once. As per the 'current time line' this is the 'second wave' of Naruni hitting the market, and they technically are doing so against orders. The big guys in the company have said for them to leave it alone. So the Naruni have to be careful not to get caught.

what the hell are you going to use to justify outlawing wilks? "we don't like them because they aren't grovelling on their knees before us" isn't exactly good PR.

Same way the US justifies not allowing the guy down the street to have a tank with a working turrent. Wilks weapons, even the smallest pistols have power higher than modern day battle tanks. They simply get put on restricted weapons list. Don't like it? Take it up with the Dead Boys. People like to say I'm a CS fanboy. I'm not. I know they do some dirty stuff sometimes. In this case, they've deemed something illegal. So it's illegal. What are you gonna do about it? Write your congressman?

The REASON they outlawed wilks weapons is their new alliance with Northern Gun, and wilks was in compititon with Northern Gun. Remember, the CS has no anti-monopoly laws.
A secondary reason is the limit of the proliferation of military grade weapons. It's a 'first step'

a stupid move like that should get the CS on a lot of people's KOS lists.

LoL so.... because the CS are limiting military weapons you're going to go to war with them? Good luck. Most people will 1) Avoid the cs. 2) Take the fine, vs DIE, or 3) Buy Northern gun or traix stuff.

you don't see mercenary companies taking on the US army. You know why?

no, not in CS 'burbs. but the CS doesn't stay in the 'burbs. they don't even stay in their territory. they're constantly sticking their noses into everyone else's business. and when you're doing that, and you decide to try and steal those people's livelihoods and the only things allowing them to defend themselves from literal demons and monsters, just because you decided arbitrarily that nobody should be allowed to use them, whether or not they're in your territory, you are going to get shot.

And then the CS hammer comes down on the moron that shoots at them and he's dead. Problem still soved. Even if that moron kills one or two CS troops. They have millions more. Moron with the wilks gun does not. he's simply dead. You're not wrong. some idiots will try and fight it out. But it's like idiots that shoot it out with the cops. They lose. Why? Because there's always more cops than there are idiots. No criminal shooting and killing a few cops suddenly makes that city's cops stop doing their jobs. If anything it has the inverse effect. MORE cops doing MORE stuff. Not less.

given a choice between having the tools they need to earn money taken away and then not being able to replace them because they can't earn money, or fighting, how do you think people are going to respond?

Gun taken away and fine.... Or certain death.

MOST people are going to take the fine. Because while it sucks (( and it does suck)) it sure beats being shot down in the street. it's great to go guns blazing in an RPG, but if you're being honest. MOST PEOPLE are not going to pick a fight with a military of millions. It's STUPID.

given a choice between letting someone steal the only weapon you have to keep your family alive and fighting, what do you think the people anywhere else are going to respond? a farmer or hunter can't just go down to the store and shell out 25,000 credits willy-nilly just because some douchebag decided one day that it isn't allowed.

Given a choice between a fine and death. Most people choose fine. Again, can you andd your mates take out a few CS troops? Maybe. But the first laser that flys, the troops are on the radio inside their armor and reporting it. Even if you kill them. More will come. And More. and MORE. That is why gangs don't take on the military, or the government. You might be king of your little hill, but the CS has millions of troops and hold grudges. Even if they don't send actual troops they can just put a bounty on your head. Some bounty hunter will take it. They're not ALL nice and chummy.

a mercenary company isn't going to be rolling in cash either - if they were, they would probably be retired someplace nice instead of risking their necks all the time.

No, but if it comes up, they can be smart and use different gear.

if the CS decides they're going to be a complete and utter ******* just because they can, in ways that destroy people's lives and livelihoods, they are going to get shot at. a lot.

They have armor. *Shrugs* if you're stupid enough to shoot at the military, you will soon be dead and the problem solved. You act as if a farmer or even a merc group shooting at the Cs is going to some how scare them out of doing what they want to do.

i bet the troops that are supposed to enforce this moronic rule aren't going to like it either, because it's really damned hard to justify stealing things just to be an ass when you consider yourself a protector of humanity.

Pause.. look around. How many rocket launchers or missiles do you see in the hands of common folk. Do you really think that this is that outlandish? MD weaponry is stronger than modern day tannks. The CS curbing one of the companies isn't going to freak out anyone. People will either comply or die. It's a law. Again this is the CS. Not our nice fluffy government. If you buck the military you simply get killed. No due process. No if's ands' or butts. if the CS military tells you to do somthing, you comply or you die.

it won't get enforced on merc squads unless the CS happens to actually, by pure coincidence, have a massively superior force right there... and it won't get enforced on random farmers and other people, because the soldiers are (or so we keep being told) not a bunch of sadistic murderers who get their jolleys out of destroying people's lives.

It'll get enforced any time they feel like enforcing it. Again you act like the military has some sort of buddy system with mercs. They don't. Military look down on mercs. They certinly don't fear them. ((In general. if Larsen's Brigade rolled up on a platoon. sure, but I'm speaking in broad terms)). If the CS find mercs with the guns they're going to act. if the merc's have a bigger group, the CS can observe and radio in back up. As much backup as they need. It might take a while to get there, but it's not like ONE CS troop is going to try and kill 25 guys for having the outlawed weapons. He calls in what he needs.

Does that mean they go in guns blazing every time? Probably not. There's digression in the field. There's sometimes where it might be bad to do so. Still the CS troops see those using Naruni weapons as allies to alien invaders. Not just "Schmucks with a gun we don't like" They're ranked up there with militant Dbees and dangerous magic users. It's what they DO, to take out those THREATS TO HUMANITY (( In their eyes.)) the more mercs, the higher the threat, the more important it is to get those dangerous weapons out of their hands.

When it comes to Wilks. It's not going to instantly be the shoot out at the OK Corral like you're making out. Mmost times the CS will just point out, they're against hte law. hand them over. you seem to think that farmer or what ever will scream "YOU CAN HAZ MY WILKS WHEN YOU PRY IT FROM MY COLD DEAD FINGERS!!" Zap zap zap. Where in, the CS would tilt their head and shrug and make his fingers cold and dead. For being a FOOL and attacking a military squad.

Remember, these aren't beat cops with a pistol on thier hip and maybe a shot gun in the car. The CS are military. If you start a shoot out with them you're suddenly in battle with a trained military unit. Who can, if need be, call in an air strike and vaporize your entire town. Just to make a point. Many people would be mad. They might resist and get a beating. but to just simply open fire on military units is suicide. Will some do it? Sure. Some fools shoot at cops. What happens? The cops kill him or arrest him. The CS.... aren't going to be big on arrest.. unleass it leads to public execution.

MOST people, will take a fine, over death. Those that don't. Death works. Eitherway the CS wins.

[Pepsi Jedi]

this is nonsense. the CS does not have unlimited troops to send 100+ soldiers after every single 25-person squad to hunt them down for using weapons they don't like.

No, but if said Merc Company is making any bother for the CS, then the CS military has the advantage in Skelbots. True they do not do much damage, but the robots can attack over and over again and not get tired while the members of the Merc Company sooner or later needs their rest. Some times you do not need to actually fight your enemies and kill them, you only have to deprive them of sleep and rest long enough for them not to be too fatigued to do anything, and then you strike with enough firepower. Also, the CS could also order their skelbots to harm and seriously injure the mercs, as it will make the mercs weaker in that they need to constantly care for their wounded. Also to go around the mercs and remove any possible food sources and possible safe places to hide in.

It has worked for both the Russians, the afghans and the Israeli in wars, and this is just a simple merc company they fight. So if a few CS grunts and dogboys die, there are more where they come from, as long as they can take out the mercs and show the world through propaganda that this is what happens with those who associate themselves with naruni, the number of dead CS soldiers can always be altered and spun with the propaganda ministry.

The lady speaks truth.

[Pepsi Jedi]

They have millions of troops.

Where have you found that they have millions of troops. I have to read this for my self.

Coalition War Campaign. It mentions the millions of troops in there. I've quoted it in debates here in the past. You could search my posts for millions and go back and find if if you like. The minimum number for "Millions" is 2 million, so they have at least that many.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Coalition War Campaign. It mentions the millions of troops in there.
I've quoted it in debates here in the past. You could search my posts
for millions and go back and find if if you like. The minimum number for
"Millions" is 2 million, so they have at least that many.

Ahh ok, so your using a number for the build up of war, to assume they have
millions of troops.

But you have no real quote in any book at all to support your claim, especially
since we can quote that for every 1 Tolkeen killed, they took 3 CS soilders with
them.

And that would mean alotta the fluff you count as your proof that the CS has millions
of troops is at best, (and being generous here) over a million.


PS.
You can not use a number you find what is it, 5 yrs prior, (or more) to validate your opinion after the loss of hundreds of thousands of those troops. Of which the books have not yet stated they have been replenished either.

It's in the books. *Shrug* You asked. I told you. And if you read aftermath, the "losses' the CS took have been factored in and with the new recruitment and all they break even, except for their military. You can try and obfuscate it all you want. The CS has millions of troops because the book says Millions. Not 'A million" The minimum number to have millions is 2 million. There is a real quote in the book, I just am not taking time to look it up AGAIN. I pointed out I've done so in the past. You're free to check my posts for it.

[masslegion]

Coalition War Campaign. It mentions the millions of troops in there.
I've quoted it in debates here in the past. You could search my posts
for millions and go back and find if if you like. The minimum number for
"Millions" is 2 million, so they have at least that many.

Ahh ok, so your using a number for the build up of war, to assume they have
millions of troops.

But you have no real quote in any book at all to support your claim, especially
since we can quote that for every 1 Tolkeen killed, they took 3 CS soilders with
them.

And that would mean alotta the fluff you count as your proof that the CS has millions
of troops is at best, (and being generous here) over a million.


PS.
You can not use a number you find what is it, 5 yrs prior, (or more) to validate your opinion after the loss of hundreds of thousands of those troops. Of which the books have not yet stated they have been replenished either.

It's in the books. *Shrug* You asked. I told you. And if you read aftermath, the "losses' the CS took have been factored in and with the new recruitment and all they break even, except for their military. You can try and obfuscate it all you want. The CS has millions of troops because the book says Millions. Not 'A million" The minimum number to have millions is 2 million. There is a real quote in the book, I just am not taking time to look it up AGAIN. I pointed out I've done so in the past. You're free to check my posts for it.

Actually millions does not mean a minimum of 2 million only the number is greater than or equal to 1 million and less than 1 billion. Reference http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/million. I've included the appropriate quote below.

millions, a number between 1,000,000 and 999,999,999, as in referring to an amount of money: His fortune was in the millions of dollars.

I don't think this changes your point all that much but your statement that millions means a minimum of 2 million is not necessarily sound logic. Any amount of 1 million or more is millions.

[Giant2005]

[quote"Pepsi Jedi"]
It's in the books.

The CS has millions of troops because the book says Millions. Not
'A million" The minimum number to have millions is 2 million.

Which book and page ? Is all I am asking for verification.[/quote]

The strength of Coalition forces comes not only from their powerful war machines and high technology, but from the spirit and commitment of its millions of fierce, fanatical soldiers and brilliant officers who embody the fighting spirit of the Coalition States.

For more specifics, page 44 of CWC states that 10% of the CS population are in the military, taking the SB1 CS population numbers (minus FQ) gives a population of around 12 million citizens (1.2m of which are in the military). This number has dropped somewhat as of Aftermath, the CS population is now being credited at 9 million. If they still run at 10% military, that would give 900k active personnel.
Of course I think it is hugely unreasonable to expect the CS population to drop 3 million over such a short amount of time, so I'd be more inclined to ignore Aftermath and stick with the 12m population number.

[Mack]

For more specifics, page 44 of CWC states that 10% of the CS population are in the
military, taking the SB1 CS population numbers (minus FQ) gives a population of around
12 million citizens (1.2m of which are in the military). This number has dropped
somewhat as of Aftermath, the CS population is now being credited at 9 million. If they
still run at 10% military, that would give 900k active personnel.
Of course I think it is hugely unreasonable to expect the CS population to drop 3
million over such a short amount of time, so I'd be more inclined to ignore Aftermath
and stick with the 12m population number.

ok solid numbers like these are what I admire. Thank you very much Giant.

10% of the total population are in the military. Total population given is 9 million.
10% of 9 million is 900,000 human troops in the Military.

And I (in my opinion) would not include in these number's each "Garrison" of troops
protecting each city. (such as the 440k+ stated to be protecting Chi-Town) But even
taking those into consideration, we would not see 2million + troops unless you wish
to also include the Dogboys. OF which we know nothing about numbers wise.

I don't recommend relying on math based on sketchy info from the original Sourcebook 1--it's over 20 years out of date. (Plus that info was excluded from the revised version.) Aftermath is a better source, despite not giving a complete picture.

(Not too mention that consistent math is not a mainstay of Rifts.)

[Mack]

that info was excluded from the revised version.

Are you saying as a person who works with KS himself and some one in the know about
all things canon, if something is omitted from 1 book to the next That it no longer
holds as a canon piece of work Mack ?

Or is this your opinion as not to ?

I'm simply stating "that info was excluded from the revised version." We know, for whatever reason, that information was not of enough importance to re-print in the revised version. The reader is left to draw their own conclusion as to why. I'm not going to tell you it is, or isn't, canon. I will say to make your own reasoned decision.

(By the way, there's a lot of ambiguity in Rifts. At least 90% of the debates here are caused by it.)

As for my opinion: 20 years ago I relied upon it (I still have my original SB1 from then). Today, I take it with a hefty grain of salt.

[Killer Cyborg]

The books give a lot of numbers, sometimes apparently conflicting.

CWC 89 states that the CS has "A huge standing army, representing over 10% of the population..."
Note that this is their standing army; it doesn't count reserves, or any temporary army that they could build for shorter periods of time, nor does it include the ISS.
Since the specific word "army" is used, it might not even include the CS Navy, and it might not include air forces or other categories of soldier.
Also, it doesn't include the forces that were part of Free Quebec.

CWC 42 states:
Except for a few notable exceptions, like Tolkeen and Free Quebec, the nations surrounding the CS have armies of about 5,000-15,000, sometimes less- nothing compared to the nearly one million Coalition soldiers ready for combat (and according to some reports, as many as another half million in the process of training!)

That puts the numbers at about 1.5 million, BUT there could well be a lot of significance in the phrase "ready for combat."
I'd say that this number is referring to the number of infantry that are essentially free to go to war, NOT counting soldiers that are already stationed somewhere.
I'd also say that it does not include the ISS, reserves, etc., as described above.
Oh, and it also wouldn't include skelebots.

CWC 53-54 describe Service Specialists: scouts, mercenaries, spies, informers, free agents, adventurers, or laborers who may be hired for special missions or extended duty.
In remote wilderness areas or in enemy territory far from the CS, D-Bees, mutants, and mages are occasionally even hired to serve as Service Specialists.

CWC 69 mentions that the CS has decided to create an official cyborg division of 5760 Borgs.

CWC 77 mentions two Divisions of CS Juicers (11,520 troops)

CWC 88 states: ... THe CS army is formidable, only slightly less so than the New German Republic and the Splugorth of Atlantis.
As pointed out, it also refers to the CS' "millions of fierce, fanatical soldiers and brilliant officers..."
As pointed out, "millions" means "2 million minimum."

CWC 113 states: Over 3.2 million PA-06A SAMAS are stockpiled; half are currently in use by the ISS and its subdivisions.
It also gives the reason for this "stockpiling": The old-style SAMAS "has been semi-retired from military service."
What this means is that the CS military had 3.2 million old-style SAMAS that were rendered obsolete by the newer models. The most likely explanation for this is that they have at least 3 million SAMAS pilots in the CS military on a level that they would potentially need their own suit of this power armor.
Note that this is strictly referring to the number of SAMAS suits, NOT to power armor overall.
Note that if the CS semi-retired 3.2 million suits of old-style SAMAS, it is not unreasonable to assume that they have roughly the same number of NEW SAMAS suits in use.

CWC 122 puts the number of Skelebots at 92,160 minimum.

I haven't yet looked in Aftermath or SB1 or other sources.

[Shark_Force]

i hate using anything from the CWC/war on tolkeen stuff.

it is almost universally considered to be an incredibly poorly written series with regards to credibility from what i can tell. almost nobody likes it, and most of the people who do, if you start asking, are either deliberately ignoring the stupid stuff and glossing it over, or have actually removed it from their games because it's so stupid.

with that being said, let's go ahead and presume the CS just has millions of soldiers sitting around, waiting to get the bat signal and go charging across the continent to murder some fellow humans for daring to own things that emperor prosek doesn't approve of (notwithstanding the truly absurd logistics chain that would require; for every 1 soldier in the field today, it's something like another 3 military personnel are required to keep them running iirc. if 10% of your population are soldiers/pilots/etc, that means that 40% of your population is accounted for right there... or rather, it would be, *if* their technology doesn't call for more people behind the lines. given the trends are for more maintenance required, not less... i'm not expecting to suddenly see that change. i wouldn't be surprised if we added up all the people supposedly in the CS military, if it added up to more than the official population of the CS. but hey, like i said... we're going to just pretend like this is a reasonable number. for the sake of argument.

so first off, they have to actually find these theoretical people who are using "illegal" technology. depending, that could be extremely hard. in fact, given that the CS has decided apparently that they should basically **** off *everyone* just because they can, i would expect they'll need those troops for stuff like, say, protecting their crops from being burned by the millions of people, including a significant portion who are capable of rapidly teleporting in or out of a location, whom they have made enemies of. of course, they could just project all their troops out, but that's going to result in them not having troops at home, on their front... which consists of every last scrap of territory the CS owns, including the sky above that territory, the ground below that territory, any bodies of water, etc. oh, and also the territory they're sitting on just to make sure nobody else can use it making enemies of people who can pull off some truly extreme terrorist stunts is not a good idea, generally speaking, and while lots of people died in tolkeen, lots escaped, and lots of them are extremely angry.

so they probably need to keep a large portion of those troops for, you know, actually defending their territory.

but in any case, they need patrols to even find these people with unapproved tech. these patrols have to actually locate those who have the tech, get up next to them, and then apprehend them... except that the people being approached are going to be doing everything in their power to make sure you can't do that. because it is their lives you're screwing with. you're sitting there deciding that they need to be completely and utterly ruined just because today, you decided to be an ass.

which comes to the next point. you have to actually persuade your soldiers, who you keep on telling them they're heroes of humanity, that it is reasonable to kick down farmer joe's door, steal what likely represents several years worth of crops, and then leave him defenseless in a wilderness you keep insisting is infested with demons and monsters, which is why you claim you need to recruit 110% of your population for military and related tasks in the first place. good luck with that.

but anyways, now you have to deal with the fact that these people are probably not going to be completely okay with you taking away their stuff. you WILL get shot at, if you try and pull this kind of nonsense. and the soldiers are going to be sitting there thinking "you know what? i deserve this. i deserve to be shot at, because i am not defending humanity. in fact, all i'm here for is to enforce a monopoly on people who likely don't even live in the coalition states, and the only reason that monopoly exists is to make a corporation the only option. not because the competitors are inhuman monsters. not because the other guys are trying to hurt anyone. just. for. money."

now, of course, it has been proposed that they could send out skelebots. that is the most absurd thing i've ever heard. there is a bloody *reason* the CS basically sends them only to places where they don't care if everyone and everything gets shot. they're not law enforcement. in fact, the absolute most essential part of law enforcement, the ability to use your judgment, is completely lacking in them. if the CS were to try and use the skelebots as law enforcement, it would be a complete and utter disaster.

if the CS were to actually try and pull off this kind of idiotic stunt, against wilks - one of rifts earth's oldest and most reliable companies, not just for weapons, but for all kinds of every day electronics - they would ruin all the hard work they've put into being able to pretend they're the good guys, just trying to protect humanity.

when your image becomes associated with leaving farmer brown's family completely undefended against bandits, raiders, monsters, demons, and who knows what else, it's really damned hard to make yourself look like the champion of the people.

even if it was somehow feasible, even if the CS was to only send out patrols with hundreds of troops in them, even if they did somehow have 110% of their population in the military, it still would be a mind-bogglingly stupid thing for them to do, and it would make them a lot of enemies, and it would severely erode popular support.

just because the books sometimes ignore what is reasonable, doesn't mean we should be compelled to follow that.

[DhAkael]

i hate using anything from the CWC/war on tolkeen stuff.

it is almost universally considered to be an incredibly poorly written series with regards to credibility from what i can tell.

Spoiler:

almost nobody likes it, and most of the people who do, if you start asking, are either deliberately ignoring the stupid stuff and glossing it over, or have actually removed it from their games because it's so stupid.

with that being said, let's go ahead and presume the CS just has millions of soldiers sitting around, waiting to get the bat signal and go charging across the continent to murder some fellow humans for daring to own things that emperor prosek doesn't approve of (notwithstanding the truly absurd logistics chain that would require; for every 1 soldier in the field today, it's something like another 3 military personnel are required to keep them running iirc. if 10% of your population are soldiers/pilots/etc, that means that 40% of your population is accounted for right there... or rather, it would be, *if* their technology doesn't call for more people behind the lines. given the trends are for more maintenance required, not less... i'm not expecting to suddenly see that change. i wouldn't be surprised if we added up all the people supposedly in the CS military, if it added up to more than the official population of the CS. but hey, like i said... we're going to just pretend like this is a reasonable number. for the sake of argument.

so first off, they have to actually find these theoretical people who are using "illegal" technology. depending, that could be extremely hard. in fact, given that the CS has decided apparently that they should basically **** off *everyone* just because they can, i would expect they'll need those troops for stuff like, say, protecting their crops from being burned by the millions of people, including a significant portion who are capable of rapidly teleporting in or out of a location, whom they have made enemies of. of course, they could just project all their troops out, but that's going to result in them not having troops at home, on their front... which consists of every last scrap of territory the CS owns, including the sky above that territory, the ground below that territory, any bodies of water, etc. oh, and also the territory they're sitting on just to make sure nobody else can use it making enemies of people who can pull off some truly extreme terrorist stunts is not a good idea, generally speaking, and while lots of people died in tolkeen, lots escaped, and lots of them are extremely angry.

so they probably need to keep a large portion of those troops for, you know, actually defending their territory.

but in any case, they need patrols to even find these people with unapproved tech. these patrols have to actually locate those who have the tech, get up next to them, and then apprehend them... except that the people being approached are going to be doing everything in their power to make sure you can't do that. because it is their lives you're screwing with. you're sitting there deciding that they need to be completely and utterly ruined just because today, you decided to be an ass.

which comes to the next point. you have to actually persuade your soldiers, who you keep on telling them they're heroes of humanity, that it is reasonable to kick down farmer joe's door, steal what likely represents several years worth of crops, and then leave him defenseless in a wilderness you keep insisting is infested with demons and monsters, which is why you claim you need to recruit 110% of your population for military and related tasks in the first place. good luck with that.

but anyways, now you have to deal with the fact that these people are probably not going to be completely okay with you taking away their stuff. you WILL get shot at, if you try and pull this kind of nonsense. and the soldiers are going to be sitting there thinking "you know what? i deserve this. i deserve to be shot at, because i am not defending humanity. in fact, all i'm here for is to enforce a monopoly on people who likely don't even live in the coalition states, and the only reason that monopoly exists is to make a corporation the only option. not because the competitors are inhuman monsters. not because the other guys are trying to hurt anyone. just. for. money."

now, of course, it has been proposed that they could send out skelebots. that is the most absurd thing i've ever heard. there is a bloody *reason* the CS basically sends them only to places where they don't care if everyone and everything gets shot. they're not law enforcement. in fact, the absolute most essential part of law enforcement, the ability to use your judgment, is completely lacking in them. if the CS were to try and use the skelebots as law enforcement, it would be a complete and utter disaster.

if the CS were to actually try and pull off this kind of idiotic stunt, against wilks - one of rifts earth's oldest and most reliable companies, not just for weapons, but for all kinds of every day electronics - they would ruin all the hard work they've put into being able to pretend they're the good guys, just trying to protect humanity.

when your image becomes associated with leaving farmer brown's family completely undefended against bandits, raiders, monsters, demons, and who knows what else, it's really damned hard to make yourself look like the champion of the people.

even if it was somehow feasible, even if the CS was to only send out patrols with hundreds of troops in them, even if they did somehow have 110% of their population in the military, it still would be a mind-bogglingly stupid thing for them to do, and it would make them a lot of enemies, and it would severely erode popular support.

just because the books sometimes ignore what is reasonable, doesn't mean we should be compelled to follow that.

Sorry for spoiler band but the original post is, well, LONG.
BUT extremely well argued and logically put forth.
THUS... Wins the internet for the whole [censored] week!

[Pepsi Jedi]

i hate using anything from the CWC/war on tolkeen stuff.

it is almost universally considered to be an incredibly poorly written series with regards to credibility from what i can tell.

Actually if you check the "Favorite world book" threads, the CWC comes up quite a bit. Linking it with the other isn't apt. Many people like CWC, that don't like the Siege series.

almost nobody likes it, and most of the people who do, if you start asking, are either deliberately ignoring the stupid stuff and glossing it over, or have actually removed it from their games because it's so stupid.

with that being said, let's go ahead and presume the CS just has millions of soldiers sitting around, waiting to get the bat signal and go charging across the continent

False assumption 1. They're not just all sitting at Chi town waiting to go out across the continent. many of them are out activly patroling, and are forward deployed to bases through out the CS. Not all in one place waiting to be deployed. Hundreds of thousands of troops in each CS state.

to murder some fellow humans for daring to own things that emperor prosek doesn't approve of

Or.... like being mages or demons? You think the CS wouldn't do that either?

(notwithstanding the truly absurd logistics chain that would require; for every 1 soldier in the field today, it's something like another 3 military personnel are required to keep them running iirc. if 10% of your population are soldiers/pilots/etc, that means that 40% of your population is accounted for right there... or rather, it would be, *if* their technology doesn't call for more people behind the lines. given the trends are for more maintenance required, not less... i'm not expecting to suddenly see that change. i wouldn't be surprised if we added up all the people supposedly in the CS military, if it added up to more than the official population of the CS. but hey, like i said... we're going to just pretend like this is a reasonable number. for the sake of argument.

No. You're half right. MOST of the CS population does revolve around supplying and maintaining the military. It's how they keep it going. You're taking something past the extreme to go from 2 or 3 upkeep to more than 7 per, but you're half right. It's stated that most of the CS Civilian populations go to putting the army in the field. Be it boot makers, armor makers, gun makers, bomb makers, or even those farmers growing those Genetically engineered super tasty super cows. How do they help the military? They keep them fed.

You're not "Wrong'. yes it does take a lot to field the army. And yes your right it would (( and does)) Take huge portions of the civilian population to do so. That's the BASIS of the CS. It's how it works.

so first off, they have to actually find these theoretical people who are using "illegal" technology. depending, that could be extremely hard. in fact, given that the CS has decided apparently that they should basically **** off *everyone* just because they can, i would expect they'll need those troops for stuff like, say, protecting their crops from being burned by the millions of people, including a significant portion who are capable of rapidly teleporting in or out of a location, whom they have made enemies of.

Again, you're falling into the "I'm safe in my airconditioned basement! I can take on the military! Oops.. I'm dead. Wait. I'll roll up a NEW CHARACTER! MUIAAHAHAHA!!" Type thinking. You don't see people rebelling and burning the fields... 1) because that's what THEY eat and 2) becasue if you're a farmer, you don't attack a super technological super power by burning their fields if the --weakest-- laser pistol they have can blow a basket ball sized hole through you.. 15 people behind you.. the house behind them.. the tree behind the house and 100 yards into the woods.

You're assuming that it pisses off people. The CS aren't sad cowering masses under a slave driver's whip. They are happy to be members of the CS and feel privlidged to do so. They buy into the 'Magic is bad' propaganda. They have heard the stories of 200 years of darkness and the 100 years crawling up out of the abyss. They aren't sitting around waiting to be saved. They LOVE the CS. Because the CS protects them. If the CS goes "These weapons are from an evil alien invading race and if these criminals have them, they must be working with the invaders.... the people belive them. They don't raise up in arms. It's stated multiple times that the CS Propaganda machine is huge and does it's work well.

The people don't freak out, because they BELEIVE that the alien weapons are dangerous tech from alien invaders! So they're not going to suddenly spin around and try and take on their own military. Military armed with tanks and jets and power armor and borgs and juicers... and.. lol BURN THE FIELDS.

How many people do you see attacking OUR military? Which is many times smaller per population? One.... three? Five guys a year. Psychos that wanna do "Suicide by cop" or "Suicide by troops"? Inspite of non stop 24/7/365 complaining about out government and our military. How many uprisings do you see that go past one.. two guys that get shot and killed in under a day? If not in hours?

of course, they could just project all their troops out, but that's going to result in them not having troops at home, on their front... which consists of every last scrap of territory the CS owns, including the sky above that territory, the ground below that territory, any bodies of water, etc. oh, and also the territory they're sitting on just to make sure nobody else can use it making enemies of people who can pull off some truly extreme terrorist stunts is not a good idea, generally speaking, and while lots of people died in tolkeen, lots escaped, and lots of them are extremely angry.

Two problems here. 1) You're assuming there's SOOOOOOO MANY people to fight the CS. The CS WON Against tolkeen. They killed most of the combatants. Yes some escaped the "Retribution squads" But you're talking about trying to empty the ocean with a thimble. They can pop up. Cause some noise then run away. The CS Post war isn't hurt. They're not on the run. With the dramatic influx of recruitment before and during the war, even with losses the CS is about breaking even. (( Except the navy))

Yes... they have millions of troops to use. You keep a good portion at home. (( As the books state. Chi Town alone has almost half a million there at all times.)) But each state has it's own forces. They're not all piled up in a stack on one base. They're spread out around the territory in smaller bases and many are moble.

Do they cover every inch of territory they claim? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo they don't. But most of it is wild crazy monster infested land anyway. It's like going "The US doesn't REALLY cover every inch of Alaska!!!" Well. No.. but much of it is untamed wilderness. We cover it with radar and overflights and satalite look downs. We don't have to stand in the woods 500 miles from anything resembeling a light switch to know there's not alot goin' on out there every second, or know that North Korea isn't building a secret base there. Same with the CS. when you can send out a simple power armor squad that can fly at 500 mph, you can cover alot of ground. That's not even counting the jets that can book at mach 3+. They don't cover every inch, every second of every day. They patrol. And when they see things of interest, they investigate.

so they probably need to keep a large portion of those troops for, you know, actually defending their territory.

Each state in the CS has it's own armies for this. As well as the overall CS army. It's in the books.

but in any case, they need patrols to even find these people with unapproved tech.

And they have them. In more than one place I'm sure but I found 5 pages of different size and kind of CS patrols last night in the BM book. And that's 5 pages of lists. Not stats. there's dozens of different size and make up of patrols there. From 2 to 4 rangers to full army corps out on manuvers.

these patrols have to actually locate those who have the tech, get up next to them, and then apprehend them... except that the people being approached are going to be doing everything in their power to make sure you can't do that. because it is their lives you're screwing with. you're sitting there deciding that they need to be completely and utterly ruined just because today, you decided to be an ass.

1) It's not 'Just today'. lol it's been a long running thing for the CS
2) You make it out like it's insane. Do you see guys with rocket launchers when you fill up your car? Or dod you see people with Mini guns when you shop for fruit? Do you see guys with car mounted missle launchers when you drive to the comic store? No. You don't. The US restricts military weapons of all sorts from civilian use. (( that's with out even touching fire arms)) MD Weapons have more power in one pistol than a US Battle tank. But you seem to think it's just utterly absurd for a government to have rules? Look at the NGR. I'm pretty sure they have stiff laws about MD Weapons and civilians there. Even MD armor and such. I seem to remember civilans by and large couldn't even buy MD cars. But some how the CS is just being a big ol mean bully if they inact laws about curbing military weapons? Oh noes!!! how dare they!!!! Really? Lol

Your point though. The patrols have to find them. yes. they do. But your Mercs have to make a living. That means getting paid. Mercs don't hide out under rocks their entire life. They have to come to citys or the like to pick up work.. and between jobs. And to spend the money they make, and to resupply.

Even with out all that, think about it this way. A field of snow... with one apple in it. The field could be 100s of yards on a side but that apple is easy to see. The world of rifts is 90% wilderness. Tech and mercs that can AFFORD Naruni weapons are going to stand out. You're not talking about tree hugging sasquatch walking softly on the earth eating berries and braiding each other's hair. They're going to be a merc group that is going to stand out. They are going to need bigger jobs to maintain that level of equipment. That makes them infinately easier to track.

Again you seem to be under the impression that everyone in Rifts hates the CS and just wants them to die. Most people out side the CS are poor. A few 100 to few 1000 credits and EVERY Group with more than 5 people will have someone that would sell out their mother. Those towns that the Mercs have to come through to resupply, pick up jobs, spend money... someone.... is going to be an alcoholic.. and will sell information for a bottle of hootch.. someones' going to be a drug addict looking for his next fix and that snitch money looks mighty good.

Hiding an ultra high tech merc out fit who needs SPEICAL ammo and maintenance for their gear in a world 90% wilderness is going to be hard. Most especially from a military the size of the CS.

which comes to the next point. you have to actually persuade your soldiers, who you keep on telling them they're heroes of humanity, that it is reasonable to kick down farmer joe's door, steal what likely represents several years worth of crops, and then leave him defenseless in a wilderness you keep insisting is infested with demons and monsters, which is why you claim you need to recruit 110% of your population for military and related tasks in the first place. good luck with that.

And again you're letting your preconceptions show. The CS don't see it as some poor farmer trying to protect his crops (( which is a joke anyway, he ain't buying Naruni gear.)) They're SHOWN and TOLD that the Naruni are an alien race of arms dealers and are arming the enemies of humanity. They're arming the Dbees. The Mages, and merc companies that exist out side the CS Law. They're a threat and danger to humanity. Alien invaders with DANGEROUS Alien gear. Ultra high tech military gear that can hurt the CS.

It's not "Oh no. Poor mr farmer. he ain't done nothin'! Why ya harrassin' the good folk" Like you're trying to make out. They see it as "Hey, that's an ALIEN Weapon from an ALIEN world, sold by ALIEN INVADING ARMS Dealers, to try and DESTROY THE CS!! It's dangerous!! No Civilian needs a gun that can take on a battle tank! That guy is WILLINGLY using DANGEROUS ILLEGAL ALIEN WEAPONRY!!! He must be a threat! He must be trying to kill humans!"

Again, if you walk into the super market and you see some guy carrying a surface to air missile. Do you smile. Nod pick up your basket and walk on down the isle, nad just assume he's got some cattle rustlers in choppers trying to steal his cows? The guy has a missile on his shoulder! He's not up to anything good. That's for sure. It's not such a strange concept nor is it hard to swallow. Again, the Civilian population of the US is banned from MANY Military weapons and weapon systems. Even the strongest of which we have now, pales in comparision to the weakest of the MD pistols. Much less the ultra high tech Naruni stuff.

but anyways, now you have to deal with the fact that these people are probably not going to be completely okay with you taking away their stuff.

Probably not. Still, the people taking it away are military. You're not.

you WILL get shot at, if you try and pull this kind of nonsense.

Only by complete morons who think it's a good idea to shoot at the military. Again, what sort of world are you living in where people get in shoot outs with the military like that? We're not talking about some guys throwing bricks at guys armed with AK47's. We're talking about people with rifles that can stand at one side of your town. pull the trigger and blow through every house for 2000 feet with out slowing down. They can vaporize you with a pull of a trigger. One suit of power armor is the equivilent of a squad of modern day tanks.

What kind of FOOL shoots at ONE of those, much less an army with THREE MILLION Power armor suits, in mothballs... because they have BETTER STUFF now? Lol.

Only ones that want to die swiftly. Some are idiots. As states some fools get in shoot outs with the cops. What happens? They either die or go to jail. The CS isn't going to haul you off to jail if you shoot at them. They're gonna kill you, or at best hold you for a public execution. To dissuade such foolish acts in others in the future.

and the soldiers are going to be sitting there thinking "you know what? i deserve this. i deserve to be shot at, because i am not defending humanity. in fact, all i'm here for is to enforce a monopoly on people who likely don't even live in the coalition states, and the only reason that monopoly exists is to make a corporation the only option. not because the competitors are inhuman monsters. not because the other guys are trying to hurt anyone. just. for. money."

Nope. Again you're sitting at your game table looking down from above and trying to make it out like the people are your toys. Thing is, they're not. The CS Soldiers DO belive in what they're doing. They DO believe the Naruni are alien invaders.... because........ they are. lol. They do believe they're dangerous... because it's not Uncle fred out on the back forty using them to run off crows. Naruni is hyper advanced tech from alien worlds and alien people marketed not to frank the mechanic but to mercenaries and other militant types on our planet.

LOL You're trying to make it out like it's some poor put upon dude. If you can afford and NEED the Naruni stuff, you're not joe the plumber.

The CS and it's troops belive the stuff, because, 1) It happens to be true in this case and 2) They spend ____ALOT____ Of money on their Propaganda corps.

now, of course, it has been proposed that they could send out skelebots. that is the most absurd thing i've ever heard.

You must be new.

there is a bloody *reason* the CS basically sends them only to places where they don't care if everyone and everything gets shot. they're not law enforcement. in fact, the absolute most essential part of law enforcement, the ability to use your judgment, is completely lacking in them. if the CS were to try and use the skelebots as law enforcement, it would be a complete and utter disaster.

They're not going to deploy armies of skelebots in cities for this sort of things. (( they have the ISS and dog boys)) They can send Skelebots out for patrol. They can move and not get tired and report back what they see. Different skelebot units are used in patrols, And they often have a human overseer to keep them out of trouble.

if the CS were to actually try and pull off this kind of idiotic stunt, against wilks - one of rifts earth's oldest and most reliable companies, not just for weapons, but for all kinds of every day electronics - they would ruin all the hard work they've put into being able to pretend they're the good guys, just trying to protect humanity.

You are totally ignoring the setting. The CS makes the laws. If they simply say "No md weapons for civilians" 99% of their population would nod and go "Makes sense. If they're not military they don't need military weapons."

Look around you again. You don't see guys driving tanks to Cosco with working cannons. Military weaponry is restricted in all first world countries on earth. LOL You keep putting it forth like it's some how absurd for a government to say "You can't have a gun stronger than a tank's cannon." Do you understand how absurd it is to think they WOULDN'T Control them in some way?

when your image becomes associated with leaving farmer brown's family completely undefended against bandits, raiders, monsters, demons, and who knows what else, it's really damned hard to make yourself look like the champion of the people.

Nope. You leave them with the image of the strong CS protecting farmer brown, and not letting farmer brown have military grade weaponry.

even if it was somehow feasible,

*looks to his own weapons and back to you* Trust me. Gun control is feasible. It's very feasible. Most especially if you're a country that does NOT have the bill of rights. Look around the world at the first world nations. We have more guns than most of them and you still don't see people carrying huge military grade weaponry every day.

even if the CS was to only send out patrols with hundreds of troops in them, even if they did somehow have 110% of their population in the military, it still would be a mind-bogglingly stupid thing for them to do, and it would make them a lot of enemies, and it would severely erode popular support.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it instantly unpopular.

just because the books sometimes ignore what is reasonable, doesn't mean we should be compelled to follow that.

We have gun control Sharky. lol and that's with the right to arms. The CS have no such rights. The population has the rights that the higher ups give them. If they choose for that NOT to include certain kinds of military grade weaponry, then they can do that. They can enforce it when and if they see fit. It likely didn't happen over night. It was likely edged into, but we only get books 4 or 5 times a year and not all of those are Rifts and not all of those are focused on the CS. So we get our updates in jagged spread out chuncks.

You're severly mistaken the CS to be hobbled by current US law and "Rights" and such. It's a different world there. People lived through 100s of years of darkness with every creature from their wildest nightmares literly trying to eat them and such. Stuff they haven't even dreamed of tried to wipe out humanity. 100s of years. dozens of generations living in fear of the things in the dark. Growing up out of that and clawing their way out of darkness, they don't turn on the military that keeps them safe from those monsters as quick as you like to think. Nor are they stupid enough to shoot at the military. (( on a whole. Some people are stupid. )) When every troop in MD armor with an MD pistol is stronger than a modern day battle tank.... you don't pick fights with 10 or 20 of them. Much less an army of millions of um.

That... is silly. Or suicidal.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

the Naruni sell weapons and armor to vampires, and anyone else , I can see the coalition point of trying to stop this from happening.

Skelebots are a neat weapon system, to use, they never get tired, bored, sleepy, complain, or lazy. you could put one in a spot for two years at a time, and have a relay system set up, and wait until they see something they report it another team deals with it.

[Giant2005]

A huge standing army, representing over 10% of the population

The enormous armed forces of Chi-Town represent approximately one-tenth of the total population of the Coalition States.

Can anyone explain how these quotes from the CWC mesh together?
Sure the page 89 quote isn't limited to 10% but the mere fact that the 10% number was mentioned suggests the true value is around that figure somewhere - it is purely my opinion but it seems stupid to say "over 10%" when you really mean 50%. I'd expect the value of CS soldiers to be somewhere between 10-15% of the population based off that statement.
The second statement is pretty clear, 10% of the total population are soldiers stationed in Chi Town. Judging by the first statement, that is virtually their entire army.
So are the other states left virtually defenseless (Specially considering Chi Town just came and robbed their farmers of their Wilk's weapons, leaving them defenseless)?
And who exactly are out there taking those weapons in the first place if Prosek is so paranoid he feels compelled to station his entire army at his door protecting him?

[Killer Cyborg]

Each state in the CS has it's own armies for this. As well as the overall
CS army.

Are you saying that the Coalition has Millions of Troops not including those
forces Army corp's that are defending the Cities themselves ?

CWC 37 has a section that talks about the Regional State Forces:
Unlike the extremely specialized forces of the High Command, the State Armies are conventional combat, support and service units that are the muscle of the Army. There are large standing armies in each state, relative to local population, that include these elements and have the capacity to war without the aid of other CS states.

[Shark_Force]

@ pepsi jedi:

people aren't rebelling in the fields because previously, the CS wasn't dumb enough to basically sentence them to death by lack of ability to defend themselves. the farmers they take the guns from may not walk straight to a field in the CS to burn it, but you can bet there'll be a lot of new juicers coming off of contract in a couple years with a bone to pick with the CS. and you can bet there'll be a lot of other people who are friends of those farmers who start causing trouble *now*.

the numbers simply do not add up. the CS cannot have the kinds of numbers they're claimed to have. the numbers are so ridiculously stupid and contradictory, that they simply cannot be taken at face value. because after we get those idiotic army numbers of having millions of troops in addition to their troops stationed in the cities and bases, then you have to account for there also being millions of ISS as well.

like i said, if you start adding up the numbers, you'll likely get over 100% of the CS population being actually recruited into the military, with their non-combat support coming from the magical land of sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. where are the other millions of people who are supporting this magical war machine?

and this topic isn't about the CS hunting down mages or demons or monsters. it's about them kicking in people's doors and stealing their only defenses against those mages and demons or monsters. the CS can claim moral high ground for the former (correctly or not). it's really damned hard to tell your people that the wilks laser which was completely fine yesterday has now quite suddenly become a threat to humanity ever since the CS teamed up with northern gun, and claim that you have the moral high ground... particularly if you are not just taking the people's ability to defend themselves from all the horrible things you're insisting are out there, but also then basically robbing them at gunpoint and calling it a fine. it gets even harder when the microwave they own, which is 90% wilks parts, is perfectly fine and acceptable.

the fact that the army numbers don't add up is relevant, but not the main point. those numbers are useless, because they are contradictory and nonsensical. it may as well say that they have 100 trillion gazillion soldiers for all the value it has.

the main point is that, for a variety of reasons, the CS roaming around confiscating wilks weapons and robbing people at gunpoint after taking away their ability to defend against being robbed at gunpoint is a key example of why people think the entire CS are a bunch of braindead morons, because if they had even a tiny little shrivelled up scrap of grey matter between their ears, they wouldn't touch that with a 29.5 foot pole. the fact that it's completely absurd for them to have huge armies available to hunt down suspected wilks users is just another reason.

there are people who keep insisting the CS isn't stupid, that they have super-trained soldiers who are all good at their job and know everything about every demon and aren't dumb enough to fall for any traps and have standard scenarios worked out for every possibility no matter how improbable and blah blah blah. well, there's a reason most people think the CS are a bunch of idiots, and it's because they are consistently made to act like the biggest idiots the world has ever seen. and it's even more infuriating that they somehow manage to never suffer the consequences of their actions...

if you want anyone to believe the CS aren't a bunch of idiots, then expect them to not do things that are blindingly stupid. banning the sale, importation, and possession of wilks weapons in the 'burbs, for example, is not stupid. banning it everywhere the CS finds it, whether it's in or out of their borders, is monumentally stupid.

[Killer Cyborg]

@ pepsi jedi:

people aren't rebelling in the fields because previously, the CS wasn't dumb enough to basically sentence them to death by lack of ability to defend themselves. the farmers they take the guns from may not walk straight to a field in the CS to burn it, but you can bet there'll be a lot of new juicers coming off of contract in a couple years with a bone to pick with the CS. and you can bet there'll be a lot of other people who are friends of those farmers who start causing trouble *now*.

Farmers in Coalition territory are generally going to be protected by the Coalition.
And just because you can't have a Wilk's doesn't mean that you can't have another weapon.
Nobody sane in the US is rebelling just because the US outlaws some guns, and nobody (sane) is shooting it out with the government when the government confiscates illegal arms from them.

the numbers simply do not add up. the CS cannot have the kinds of numbers they're claimed to have. the numbers are so ridiculously stupid and contradictory, that they simply cannot be taken at face value. because after we get those idiotic army numbers of having millions of troops in addition to their troops stationed in the cities and bases, then you have to account for there also being millions of ISS as well.

like i said, if you start adding up the numbers, you'll likely get over 100% of the CS population being actually recruited into the military, with their non-combat support coming from the magical land of sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. where are the other millions of people who are supporting this magical war machine?

You're doing the math wrong, then.
Go over it again, using hard numbers if you have them.
(And if you don't have them, then it's probably illogical to say that things don't add up)

[Shark_Force]

the coalition doesn't restrict itself to policing it's own land. they're more than happy to send troops out, constantly, into everywhere else.

they can go ahead and try to enforce it in their own land. that is reasonable. heavy-handed, and not likely to win them any favors, but reasonable. and if the CS was known for keeping to themselves and not sticking their noses into other people's business, it would probably work out fine.

but that's not the CS.

if the CS has a proposed 6 or 7 people needed for each soldier (including stuff that isn't military, but which is required for the military to function), that puts an absolute cap of about 14% of their population in the military, period.

we have numbers that say their available army is 10% and that chi-town itself has a garrison that represents 10% of the total CS population. so what... -4% are available to guard every other part of CS territory?

already, with just those two 10% figures, we're up to 20%... which means that they need an *additional* 120% of their population to support that. for a total of 140% of their population. it doesn't even matter what their population specifically is, because those numbers are told to us in % form.

but if we go by that approximately 14% maximum being military, well, that's around 1.7 million of the estimated 12 million people in the CS.

except even that isn't the whole story. based on your "reasonable assumption" that the CS military at some point had 3.2 million SAMAS pilots, we can conclude by the same source that the ISS must have about 1.6 million SAMAS pilots. and given that the ISS are being given the same equipment as the military (we know they are, because the SAMAS quite literally is what the military has been using), we can figure on a pretty similar amount of required people to support them; ie 6-7 people per ISS (total, including critical non-military jobs). that would leave about 100,000 troops for the actual military.

now, obviously, 100,000 troops for the actual military doesn't fit with the established facts. and also, that assumes that every officer in the ISS is a SAMAS pilot, and that they don't have anyone else. i rather suspect that they actually have quite a large number of people who don't pilot SAMAS, if nothing else they likely have an awful lot of dog boys and their psi-stalker officers (i dunno what the CS policy is on psi-stalkers piloting SAMAS... probably with their new and much more reasonable stance of *not* making outcasts of the 25% of their human population that are psychic it isn't too unreasonable, although i doubt the psi-stalkers would like it since it would presumably block in most of their powers... but i'm pretty sure dog boys aren't assigned a SAMAS, ever).

even if we assume that it only takes, say, 4 people per soldier in the field (allowing 20% military, or ~2.4 million total)... we still get complete and utter nonsense when we start working with the numbers we're given. the CS military numbers are simply not something you can look at and say "yeah, that sounds plausible". they fall apart under even the most casual scrutiny.

for the numbers to actually fit, you'd need at least 30% recruitment rate (including ISS). which means the CS had better be able to somehow support their soldiers with only 2 people, total, including every single other job in the process of equipping, training, and supplying that soldier.

and that isn't even looking at the logistics of creating and supplying the dog boys, not to mention the added expense of fielding millions of skelebots (no, skelebots aren't soldiers... but you'll still need the resources and labor to get them produced and in the field, and that makes it even less likely to get the numbers down to 2 people in the logistics chain for every soldier).

[Pepsi Jedi]

Each state in the CS has it's own armies for this. As well as the overall
CS army.

Are you saying that the Coalition has Millions of Troops not including those
forces Army corp's that are defending the Cities themselves ?

I'm saying they have millions of troops over all. They're not ALL at Chi town. Each state has a portion of the total and their own standing forces. The State's standing defensive and all purpose forces are seperate from the forward deploying aspect of the CS military.

For example, the War on Tolkeen consisted of about a million troops put forward to battle Tolkeen, this did not "Empty out" The CS Of it's military, during all that time each state's personal forces remained and defended that state from other things and what not. They're both in "The same army' but the state's forces aren't generally moved around emptying out states. That wouldn't be too smart. While armies might be moved around with in the states. "The 34th Armored corps transferring from Iron heart to Lone Star for some hot weather training. Ok, but Iron Heart is getting the 4556th Super Samus power armor wing up from Arkansas right?" You don't generally see "ALL of Iron heart's army going some where else leaving Iron heart defenseless"

[Pepsi Jedi]

Absurd sort of knee jerk thinking going on here.

@ pepsi jedi:

people aren't rebelling in the fields because previously, the CS wasn't dumb enough to basically sentence them to death by lack of ability to defend themselves.

They're not. Buy an NG or Traix rifle and quit cha whining. You act like the CS are cackeling like cartoon villains and twirling their mustash. Buy the legal guns and you're fine.

the farmers they take the guns from may not walk straight to a field in the CS to burn it, but you can bet there'll be a lot of new juicers coming off of contract in a couple years with a bone to pick with the CS.

Wait wait wait wait... LOL So... in your mind.. these poor pitiful dirt farmers who can barely scrape by and who saved up for YEARS to buy one laser rifle, have it taken away.... are going to turn around, and have ... 3 million I belive.... to transform themselves from farmers with pitch forks and tractors... into juicers.. and start a personal crusade against the CS army? That's great if you're 6 and the logic plays out in your head. "The CS are mean! I'll be a juicer and killz them!!" but the reality is a bit different. If they're soooooo poor that they have to save up for years to get one laser rifle, where are they getting the millions to become juicers? Or the training to go from Farmer John to Juicer? LOL It's silly

and you can bet there'll be a lot of other people who are friends of those farmers who start causing trouble *now*.

Other farmers? Are they going to smash the pumpkins? What trouble are they going to cause to the CS military?

the numbers simply do not add up. the CS cannot have the kinds of numbers they're claimed to have.

How do you figure?

the numbers are so ridiculously stupid and contradictory, that they simply cannot be taken at face value. because after we get those idiotic army numbers of having millions of troops in addition to their troops stationed in the cities and bases, then you have to account for there also being millions of ISS as well.

It does seem like a lot, but for a society in that PA setting, where most of your civilian population is dedicated to and built around supporting and maintaining the military it's not too crazy. When you have honest to god demons trying to get in and eat your face, you pitch in a touch more willingly in the defense of yourself and those around you. Look how well the US pulled together after 9-11. The military got so many people signing up they couldn't take them all. And that was 3,000 people dieing. Imagine the world going to pot for 200 years and then 100 years of rebuilding in the faces of enemies that would make the 9-11 bombers look like fuzzy kittens. Where survival of the human race depends on that CS army and if you're not a trigger puller, you pitch in to make sure those that ARE, can save you from the monsters in the dark.

like i said, if you start adding up the numbers, you'll likely get over 100% of the CS population being actually recruited into the military, with their non-combat support coming from the magical land of sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. where are the other millions of people who are supporting this magical war machine?

No. You've gesticulated wildly and blown things out of porportion and taken common numbers, added assumptions exaggerated to the max and are now claiming as fact. At one point you pointed out for every troop on the ground fighting it takes 2 or 3 in support. Then you've multiplied that yourself by some factor and ended up with 7. Based on nothing. Then you've added to that. Only through your assumptions does your math gett so wonky.

Does the CS have some wonky math in places? __________YES_______________ but it's not your wonky math. Alot of your stuff is based on assumptions and exaggerated from that to add to it and end up so off.

and this topic isn't about the CS hunting down mages or demons or monsters. it's about them kicking in people's doors and stealing their only defenses against those mages and demons or monsters

Exaggeration again. They're not kicking in the doors and stealing the only defenses whaa whaa whaa... buy a traix rifle or an NG rifle. You're good to go. See how simple that is?
It's like you're going "Oh the cops are mean!! They're kicking in drug dealers doors to take away their drugs and fine them!! how dare they!?!?!?!?" Because drugs are illegal. Don't buy drugs and the cops don't come a running. Use other forms of entertainment and it doesn't get taken away.

In this case, it's --very-- simple. If you buy an NG gun, you don't have to worry about it. You're jumping way into hyperbolic responce here. "OH GOOOOOOOOOD NOOOOO MY GUNNNNNNNNNNNN WHAT EVAH WILL AH DOO??? I MUST ATTACK THE MILITARY NOW!!"

Most people will grumble. Complain and buy a NG gun. Or a Traix gun. Or one of the knock offs from the Black market. They're not going to scream and throw themselves (( Unarmed)) into war with the military. lol That's an ABSURD reaction.

the CS can claim moral high ground for the former (correctly or not).

I don't think they rightly care. They make the laws. Yes the propaganda corps might explain it, but by and large they're not asking your permission. Live under CS protection, live by CS laws. If you don't, leave or die. It's up to you. You don't HAVE to live in the CS. Again, the CS isn't like they have people voting them into office. They don't have to appease the population.

it's really damned hard to tell your people that the wilks laser which was completely fine yesterday has now quite suddenly become a threat to humanity ever since the CS teamed up with northern gun, and claim that you have the moral high ground.

Nor do you have to. It's the CS. Not Fluffy America. You simply state that as per new policy, that wilks military grade weaponry is no longer legal for possession with in the states. Turn in your wilks weapons in the next 3 months and you will not be fined. Save up and buy a Northern Gun Weapon. These weapons are approved by the CS. You're also forgetting just how rare MD weaponry is. If you read the books it's easy to be mislead because alot of the guns and arms and armor all through them in a sorrt of weapon porn thing, but 99% of people don't have MD weapons and armor. It's rare. The books state this, they just don't SHOW this. So even if they do this, you're talking about a percentage of like 1% of the population.

More than 1% of people are "Birthers" in the US and we see them as NUTBALLS. If 1% of the population have MD weapons and armor, then only part of that 1% possess wilks stuff.

It's just not that big a deal.

particularly if you are not just taking the people's ability to defend themselves from all the horrible things you're insisting are out there, but also then basically robbing them at gunpoint and calling it a fine. it gets even harder when the microwave they own, which is 90% wilks parts, is perfectly fine and acceptable.

1) Again, the percentage of people with military grade MD weapons is extreamly low.
2) You don't see people blowing holes through 50 people in a crowd with a microwave.

You're equating appliances to military weapons stronger than main battle tank cannons. Do you not see the sillyness in this?

the fact that the army numbers don't add up is relevant, but not the main point. those numbers are useless, because they are contradictory and nonsensical. it may as well say that they have 100 trillion gazillion soldiers for all the value it has.

No, you have exaggerated the numbers and have engaged in hyperbole to try and make your point. --YOUR-- numbers are with out support.

Again, does the CS have some screwy numbers? Yeah. But you just made yours up. lol

the main point is that, for a variety of reasons, the CS roaming around confiscating wilks weapons and robbing people at gunpoint after taking away their ability to defend against being robbed at gunpoint is a key example of why people think the entire CS are a bunch of braindead morons,

Again, the number of people WITH MD weapons is small.
Just like you don't cater to the Birther Morons, or is there any chance that Ron Paul's crazy self is going to end up in the white house, you don't worry about such small percentage's "Feelings" if they don't like your policy. Especially if said policy polices military grade weapons.
And again, the CS PEOPLE, LOVE the CS. They don't see them as brain dead morons. They see the CS military as their heroes and saviors.

YOU See them as brain dead morons because you're a guy reading the book in a nice safe country. You don't have to worry about a demon ripping the roof off your house and eating your daughter like a lolly pop.

because if they had even a tiny little shrivelled up scrap of grey matter between their ears, they wouldn't touch that with a 29.5 foot pole. the fact that it's completely absurd for them to have huge armies available to hunt down suspected wilks users is just another reason.

It's not like they're 'hunting down' the wilks stuff. They have just made it illegal. With very likely a transition period to turn in your weapons to avoid said fine. (( and if the people didn't like it, they'd use that time to sell off their rifle and buy a new one.)) The Wilks weapons are taken and confiscated when seen. The people fined. Again. SMALL percent of the population even has them.

The Naruni weapons are the ones that havea kill on sight order. The Wilks stuff is 'If they see you on the street, they'll confiscate and fine you' type.

there are people who keep insisting the CS isn't stupid, that they have super-trained soldiers who are all good at their job and know everything about every demon and aren't dumb enough to fall for any traps and have standard scenarios worked out for every possibility no matter how improbable and blah blah blah.

Again this is hyperbole to try and exaggerate things to extremes to make your point, it doesn't help.

well, there's a reason most people think the CS are a bunch of idiots,

DO Most people think that? Or do YOU think that? People keep saying the CS have plot immunity due to how popular they are. if this is so how can MOST people think they're a bunch of idiots?

I think you're taking YOUR opinion, seeing only it, putting it down as fact, and assuming everyone agrees with you.

and it's because they are consistently made to act like the biggest idiots the world has ever seen. and it's even more infuriating that they somehow manage to never suffer the consequences of their actions...

More hyperbole. "OH THEY'RE THE BIGGEST IDIOTS IN THE WORLD!!!" When you engage in such things it takes away from your side of the debate. If you exaggerate everything to absurd degrees, what points you MIGHT have, get covered in that and aren't seen.

Have the CS done some stupid things? Yes. Oh goodness yes. But I don't attribute that sort of thing to the CS for the most part. I attribute that to the fact that Kevin is a kind, gentle artist, and has no earthly clue about the military past what few movies' he's seen. It's not a 'stupid' thing. he writes them as he thinks they'd work. With out having military experience or having gun experience and what not. He's a 50 year old guy with some health problems that writes scifi and fantasy rpgs for a living. If the CS does something stupid and militarily unsound, it's not because the CS are brain dead. It's because Kevin doesn't have the frame of reference to know that a military wouldn't do such things. If the numbers don't add up, it's not because the CS is stupid and evil. The answer is much more simple. There's 80+ Rifts books in print. only the last 5 years or so are kept digitally. You can't 'easily' search through all the back books for numbers to make sure they match up. It's simple human writing error. Is it frustrating? yes! It is. We know because we're fanboys and even then look how many threads come up where someone thinks something is one way and another guy corrects them with stuff out of book X and then a third guy chimes in with something from book Y, and then a DIFFERENT gal comes in with stuff from book Z. One would hope that people that actually write the books would double check their stuff. Still Mistakes happen or they miss numbers, or just don't even know that numbers have been given in the past so they go with new numbers, totally ignorant of the differences in previous published stuff they're ignorant of.

if you want anyone to believe the CS aren't a bunch of idiots, then expect them to not do things that are blindingly stupid.

I wish it were that easy. I like many others, have arm-chair-generaled the Tolkeen war. I think much that they did was stupid and I'd have done it differently. Again, pointing out the lack of military experience in the writers. Not "Fault" with the make belive people that are written that way. lol

banning the sale, importation, and possession of wilks weapons in the 'burbs, for example, is not stupid. banning it everywhere the CS finds it, whether it's in or out of their borders, is monumentally stupid.

*shrugs* Such a small small small percentage of the CS population have wilks weapons. It's just not the big deal you're making it out to be. And they can all buy NG weapons or Traix, or Bandito arms (( Which technically aren't banned yet.))

If the US made Smith and Wesson guns illegal. People would get mad. they'd get upset. They'd rail and yell.

And they'd buy Glock, or Springfield, or Rugar, or Remington, or Mossberg, or Barret, or RockRiver Arms, or or or or or or or....

They would not run out of their house with their S&W gun in their hands, setting fire to fields, shooting at guys in cammo and screaming that you can't take their guns. (( Well.... a few would, but not masses of people. lol. There's nuts in every bunch.))

[Shark_Force]

seriously? that's your logic? just go buy a triax or NG rifle?

sure, just as soon as i get my hands on the magic bag the CS has been given that craps out millions upon millions of robot vehicles, power armor, trained recruits, armor, and weapons, i'll be sure to go ahead and do that. you say that as if it isn't a major investment. if you bought a brand new car 40,000 dollar car, and someone came along with 20 pounds of C4, threw it inside, and detonated it (presumably after getting a safe distance away), then took another several thousand dollars out of your bank or maxed out your credit cars, would "oh, just spend your own money on a new 40,000 dollar car" be a viable solution? because you sure seem to think it would be. this is not just some minor expense that you can just write off casually.

and we live in a place where the car lot is easy to get to and where alternative solutions are readily available, and where our life probably isn't dependant on owning a car. on rifts earth, the nearest source of new weapons may be hundreds of miles away, through monster-infested wilderness, and that's assuming you actually even have the money available to buy a new weapon in the first place.

also, you seem to be woefully unaware of the setting. one of the most common ways to become a juicer is to sign up for a military, spend the first couple of years working in that military, and then be free to go your own way. the whole point of it is that you don't need money to start it off. you just go sign up, and at the end of it you come out with a juicer (or crazy, if you prefer) conversion, training, some combat experience, and weapons.

you yourself said the CS would likely need 6-7 people in the logistics chain for every soldier in the field. that puts a very *specific* limit on how much recruiting the CS is capable of. if you go anything over ~14.3% you are going over 6 people in the logistics chain (the most generous end of the spectrum you gave possible). by your own numbers, they cannot have more than that and still be able to supply their own troops' needs. that is literally, at a rate of 6:1 support:soldiers, the absolute maximum amount you could ever possibly recruit, and it means that you're not producing so much as a single scrap extra for any purpose that does not directly contribute to the military.

you yourself said: "No. You're half right. MOST of the CS population does revolve around supplying and maintaining the military. It's how they keep it going. You're taking something past the extreme to go from 2 or 3 upkeep to more than 7 per, but you're half right."

YOU are the person who came up with 7 upkeep instead of 2 or 3. not me. YOU. if you need 7 people to supply one soldier, that is actually *less* generous than what i gave. and you even went so far as to say *more* than 7. i went the extra mile and was generous enough to offer 6 as the number. at 7:1 the CS would be looking at an absolute maximum of 12.5% recruitment. at "more than 7" it gets a little fuzzy, because that isn't a definite number, but i can tell you one thing: it doesn't add up to more than 2 million, with 1 million available for kicking in doors and confiscating stuff that hurts the coalition's feelings.

my point was that to make your numbers work, you pretty much need to have 2:1 being the absolute total number of workers required. otherwise, the CS simply does not have enough of a logistics chain to supply several million soldiers, including ISS, dog boys, and regular military. bearing in mind that dog boys are not even counted in that 12 million population, nor are skelebots (who cost less to train, but much much much more to produce than the average CS soldier).

the numbers do not make sense. they are complete and utter hogwash. if it takes 7 people to support one soldier, it is simply not possible to recruit more than 1 in 8 people and be able to supply them the bare minimum. and we know that if there's one thing that can be said of the CS, it certainly isn't hurting for supplies; in fact, they have so much stuff that even regular grunts can request the use of multi-million credit machines if they feel their job calls for it.

the CS has completely laughable numbers when it comes to their military strength. if we operate under the assumption that those numbers are canon, then we are operating under the assumption that the CS has been undergoing a massive financial collapse, cannibalizing itself to maintain it's ridiculously huge military.