Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

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Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Kagashi »

I thought for sure the Ulti-Max was a Pre-Rifts design, but in both Source Book 1 Revised and World Book 5 it doesnt mention that it is. Is there a different source or am I thinking of a different piece of equipment? Specifically, this piece of tech was unveiled at some tech expo during the Golden Age of Man. Thanks.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Slight001 »

I know the SAMAS is prerifts. IIRC Tarn saw a video of a prerifts SAMAS in flight.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Ulti-Max isn't pre-Rifts tech. I don't think I recall any mention of any of the Triax Designs being Pre-Rifts except the Glitterboy.

We know from a a few places (New West, SB1r, Chaos Earth IINM, Japan) that the SAMAS is a Pre-Rifts Design, and the Glitterboy has been identified as one since the Main Book. South America 2 also has a Glitterboy variant that is Pre-Rifts (though I think it was just the plans no actual hardware). The New Navy might also be using Pre-Rifts designs (beside the Trico). I don't have Chaos Earth but I thought I heard on the forums that at least one design in CWC might also be Pre-Rifts. Then there is the Behemoth Explorer being a Pre-Rifts design to IIRC.

Slight001, yes Tarn saw a video of a pre-Rifts SAMAS it's mentioned in Japan. Off hand IINM it was from the Chi-Town Library.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by The Galactus Kid »

ShadowLogan wrote:Ulti-Max isn't pre-Rifts tech. I don't think I recall any mention of any of the Triax Designs being Pre-Rifts except the Glitterboy.

There were Triax robot designs at the Worlds Fair as mentioned in Madhaven.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by kaid »

I don't know that any triax design was called out as pre rifts as they are one of the odd cases where they never truly fell and it was more of a steady progression than using bones of lost technologies to rebuild your city state that most of the others did.

They do call out the forager as being a really old design so that is probably more along the lines of what their pre rifts stuff looked like.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by FatherMorpheus »

In the original Sourcebook One, Sixth Printing, 1995, p 41 it says "X-1000 Ulti-Max is the most powerful form of power armor every developed by post-rifts technology."

Though it is interesting that force fields didn't continue to be used in Triax designs. Even with its limitations, it would be really help Triax.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by The Galactus Kid »

FatherMorpheus wrote:Though it is interesting that force fields didn't continue to be used in Triax designs. Even with its limitations, it would be really help Triax.

Forcefields are used by Triax. There are a number in Triax 2 and supplimental official Rifter material.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by kaid »

Yup the triax force field is not on every design but triax two does show its incorporation and some improvements on the design on a few of their models. Given its limitations I think it is still considered useful but somewhat experimental which prevents it from being applied to all models.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

FatherMorpheus wrote:In the original Sourcebook One, Sixth Printing, 1995, p 41 it says "X-1000 Ulti-Max is the most powerful form of power armor every developed by post-rifts technology."

Though it is interesting that force fields didn't continue to be used in Triax designs. Even with its limitations, it would be really help Triax.


How is it wrong to say that was NOT golden age tech?

Pre as in prefix means before, post as in post office or post-haste or post mortem means after so if that is a direct quote it says
"X-1000 Ulti-Max is the most powerful form of power armor every developed by after-rifts technology."

or were you drawing attention to that?
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

The Galactus Kid wrote:There were Triax robot designs at the Worlds Fair as mentioned in Madhaven.

I probably should have been a bit clearer that I was referencing WB5 specifically and not the entire Rifts catalog as I don't have Madhaven. However it is well known from various books that Triax itself does date back to pre-Rifts time (along with several others). That really isn't really in question. The question was if the Ulti-Max was a pre-Rifts design. Does Madhaven reference specific designs that appear in previous/later Rifts Books or is it just a general statement?
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Kagashi »

The Galactus Kid wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:Ulti-Max isn't pre-Rifts tech. I don't think I recall any mention of any of the Triax Designs being Pre-Rifts except the Glitterboy.

There were Triax robot designs at the Worlds Fair as mentioned in Madhaven.


Thanks TGK, that is exactly the source I was looking for. Madhaven said it was an exoskeleton called "Uni-Max". I guess it registered as "Ulti-Max" in my head when I read it a few years ago.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

The Galactus Kid wrote:
FatherMorpheus wrote:Though it is interesting that force fields didn't continue to be used in Triax designs. Even with its limitations, it would be really help Triax.

Forcefields are used by Triax. There are a number in Triax 2 and supplimental official Rifter material.


You did Madhaven didn't you? I love that it mentioned that thing which we have not seen in the U.S. Since 1987 :(
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Tor »

Would be interested in more variable force field regen rates. A lot of grey area between Naruni doing 1 MDC per melee round and space ships in Phase World getting 5% per round.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by everloss »

Triax put a force field on one of the support pods (medic pod or mechanic pod) in NGR 1.

On a related note, why is the Ulti-Max considered to be so awesome? Completely ammo-based, armor is meh. Damage potential is pretty terrible. I never understood why it's considered so awesome. A Triax Predator (the NGR version, not the North American version) could probably defeat it in single combat. And while it is compared to the Glitterboy, an Ulti-Max has no chance of defeating a Glitterboy.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Nightmask »

everloss wrote:Triax put a force field on one of the support pods (medic pod or mechanic pod) in NGR 1.

On a related note, why is the Ulti-Max considered to be so awesome? Completely ammo-based, armor is meh. Damage potential is pretty terrible. I never understood why it's considered so awesome. A Triax Predator (the NGR version, not the North American version) could probably defeat it in single combat. And while it is compared to the Glitterboy, an Ulti-Max has no chance of defeating a Glitterboy.


REALLY good marketing maybe?
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by everloss »

Nightmask wrote:
everloss wrote:Triax put a force field on one of the support pods (medic pod or mechanic pod) in NGR 1.

On a related note, why is the Ulti-Max considered to be so awesome? Completely ammo-based, armor is meh. Damage potential is pretty terrible. I never understood why it's considered so awesome. A Triax Predator (the NGR version, not the North American version) could probably defeat it in single combat. And while it is compared to the Glitterboy, an Ulti-Max has no chance of defeating a Glitterboy.


REALLY good marketing maybe?


Good answer.

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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Mack »

everloss wrote:Triax put a force field on one of the support pods (medic pod or mechanic pod) in NGR 1.

On a related note, why is the Ulti-Max considered to be so awesome? Completely ammo-based, armor is meh. Damage potential is pretty terrible. I never understood why it's considered so awesome. A Triax Predator (the NGR version, not the North American version) could probably defeat it in single combat. And while it is compared to the Glitterboy, an Ulti-Max has no chance of defeating a Glitterboy.


You have to go back to when it was introduced. At the time, all we had was the Rifts Main Book and Sourcebook 1.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by kaid »

Nightmask wrote:
everloss wrote:Triax put a force field on one of the support pods (medic pod or mechanic pod) in NGR 1.

On a related note, why is the Ulti-Max considered to be so awesome? Completely ammo-based, armor is meh. Damage potential is pretty terrible. I never understood why it's considered so awesome. A Triax Predator (the NGR version, not the North American version) could probably defeat it in single combat. And while it is compared to the Glitterboy, an Ulti-Max has no chance of defeating a Glitterboy.


REALLY good marketing maybe?



it does make some sense if you are marketing a unit to mercs as something similiar power range to a GB short of having boom guns then mini missiles is pretty much the way to go. And for high end power armor/low end robot vehicle it has one of the largest loads of mini missiles for any similiar chasis on the market. For mercs especially with a base for resupply or supply chains a unit that can punch out pretty much all power armor known in North america and most robot vehicles on the initial alpha strike it and has a force field it can activate after it launches the barrage to help diminish any counter strike while the missiles are in flight is a pretty solid fighting vehicle. Being able to focus fire and punch out the vast majority of main threats with its initial missile launch and ability to have a regenerating force field to help lower attritional damage repair costs its an all around very good unit.

The big downside of it for normal adventurers is its expensive to keep supplied with missiles but merc companies with larger budgets could make excellent use of these types of units.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Tor »

everloss wrote:Triax put a force field on one of the support pods (medic pod or mechanic pod) in NGR 1.
Medic, page 118, nice find, not sure if I ever noticed that, pretty significant. Clearly an early model since it reduces flight speed and takes a whole day to recharge though. Still, better than nothing and would save on repair fees. A useful feature for protecting people you are treating who aren't wrapped in MDC armor as well.

everloss wrote:why is the Ulti-Max considered to be so awesome? Completely ammo-based, armor is meh. Damage potential is pretty terrible. I never understood why it's considered so awesome.
It has a decent payload of mini-missiles, a rail gun with okay range, and a force field, allowing sustanied punishment on the field when separated from mechanics. Not being able to use the laser while the field is up kinda sucks, but it has lower range than the rail-gun, so it makes sense to stay ~5000 feet from enemy and use rail gun + force field, and then maybe switch to laser if they close within 4000 feet and your field is down.

everloss wrote:A Triax Predator (the NGR version, not the North American version) could probably defeat it in single combat.

Their laser cannon is pretty intimidating, but I think the mini missile payload of the Ulti-Max would annihilate the Predator. Predator only has 2, which at best will take down the force field.

The Ulti's rail gun also has better range, so unless they start off in close range, the Ulti-Max is going to get in some free shots.

everloss wrote:while it is compared to the Glitterboy, an Ulti-Max has no chance of defeating a Glitterboy.

A volley of 6 plasma mini-missiles does 6d6x10 MD, that's double the damage of a boom gun, an average of 210 MD per volley. Can a Glitter-Boy survive 5 of these?

Sure, Triax GBs can throw together a 4d6x10 volley, but they can only do that 3 times. The Ulti-Max can accrue damage faster, which can compensate for them having 150 less MDC protection.

Not only that, but the GB is going to be taking blast radius damage from missiles to all its parts from the get-go. The Ulti-Max's parts will be protected from the first volley of missiles by the force field.

The Ulti-Max's sextuple mini-missile chain allows them to exceed the Dyna-Max and Black Knight in single-action damage, even if it doesn't have as impressive a payload. Only the Dragonwing, Devastator, Hunter/Jager can chain together more missile damage, while the Super-Hunter can tie it.

Jagers with weapon 7 basically annihilate anybody in 1on1 combat unless you can shoot down their volleys. Very few can survive 48 short-range missiles hitting all at once.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Warshield73 »

First, I use to have the exact same opinion of the Ulti-max as was posted earier. It is slow, can't leap, is too big and has really limited weapons (especially when compared to similar sized bots like the CS UAR-1 Enforcer). I really thought this mech sucked and then...I took it to hell with Carl Gleba at POH. The rail-gun, the main body, the force field, and oh gods the mini-missiles. I chewed up gargoyles hell beasts for almost 4 hours and barely got scratched.

Also, not sure who would win in a GB - UM fight but I have to say, they work great together. I played a GB pilot in another POH game and another player had an UM and we killed an almost unlimited supply of CS mechs and Xiticix. They are an unbelievable pair.

Second, In WB 31 Triax 2, page 10 it mentions the Uni-Max-X-003 at the world's fair in 2064 as well.

Third, as for missiles, blast radius and small parts I only use the blast radius to small parts on a critical hit and only to a few parts the damage would realistically hit. I find this makes the missiles still devastating but not an "I win" button.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by jaymz »

Ulti-max is not golden age the anymore than anything in the Coalition arsenal is (the Samas, Mk V APC and Sky Cycles the notable exceptions). In fact it was considered experimental in both SB1 and WB5. While mentioned in Madhaven, Triax 2 specifies this unit to the X-001 Uni-Max. The firs application of MDC technologies to military equipment iirc.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Kagashi »

1) 2d6 is not by any means guaranteed to destroy a mini-missile.


Most certainly does. Mini missiles have 1 or 2 MDC. In both cases, a hit (assuming you hit) will destroy the missile as the minimum damage from an L-20 is 2 MD. As you point out, the volley still has a chance of surviving, but there is still a chance of nullifying the 4800 credit attack with 20 credits. Now, Short Ranged or higher, and you would have a point. Your points 2-4 I agree with 100%.

5) if the attack is made close enough, it may be physically impossible for you to react before the missiles are close enough to catch you in the blast radius, so even if you do shoot them down you might still take enough damage to finish off your armour.


Like Splash Damage rules, there is no game mechanic for this other than GM intervention. Certainly makes sense to me (as a matter of a fact, I do it quite often as a GM), but played as a rule printed in RUE on page 364 number 2, the defender still gets to shoot at the volley if he has an attack available regardless of range between attacker and defender, there is nothing saying the damage was dealt to the volley inside the blast radius. As a matter of a fact, the game mechanic clearly states if the volley is destroyed, no damage is dealt (with a capitol D and two explanation points).

and no, those armours are not nearly as widespread as you seem to think. available, yes. especially the NG armour (naruni equipment is specifically noted as being hard to find on rifts earth, for various reasons, and for many people will be unacceptable due to it's extraterrestrial origin even if it is available). but common? not by a long shot. you already specifically noted that the price is expected to come down *as it gains popularity* - in other words, right now, it isn't common to find people wearing it, otherwise it would not need to be gaining popularity.


Popularity and availability are two different things. The Mathew Brodrick's version of Godzilla was in 4 out of 10 screens in Montgomery when it was released in the theaters making it plenty available, but it was not popular as it tanked in the box office. Availability was the word in question. With the exception of the Megaversal Legion example, those armors are plenty available, even Naruni where there is a whole street block dedicated to selling gear to mercs in Merctown. You can literally walk into any Northern Gun floor room in any major city and pick up a few units of armor as well.

But more back to the original point, its been my role playing experience that most players will gravitate to a specialty armor of some kind (laser, fire, kinetic resistant) for protection over basic armor (regardless of increased cost), making the Rifts environment more protection friendly than offensive friendly (Naruni is very popular in every group I have ever played in). Less than 50% were basic MDC protection that had no resistance to anything, couldnt regenerate on its own, or wasnt a PPE/Nuclear powered force field with renewable sources of MDC. Heck, in Robotech, most of the UEG armors are laser resistant, making non specialized armor actually hard to find in an entire game setting! This, combined with the increasing spread of auto dodge for various races, anybody who can take H2H Commando, and more and more OCCs having it as an ability (along with increased numbers of attacks, well beyond "a typical NPC" of having only 4), I think a good house rule would be blast radius would affect all part of a robot or a body armor caught in the blast radius of a missile, explosive, or volley to help offset the cost compared to common weaponry and their capabilities. Plus, it just makes sense to do that anyway. This would also include your point of the possibility of being caught in the blast radius if you intercept a volley and destroying it in the last minute.
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Shark_Force »

there's a difference between what the PCs buy, and what is common. there is likewise a difference between something being commonly available, and something being commonly used.

if i wanted to, i could go buy a 50,000 dollar car right now. it's not hard to find. if i wanted one, and had the money to blow on a 50,000 dollar car, i could get one in short order.

but if i go outside and watch cars on the road, i'm going to see a heck of a lot more cars that cost 20,000 dollars or less. not because 50,000 dollar cars are unavailable or anything... simply because most people buy less expensive cars that do just about everything those 50,000 dollar cars do, at a fraction of the price.

also, on my point 1, that should have been "missile" not "mini-missile".

as to point 5: there are no rules for many things in rifts. if your GM never applies their own best judgment, i expect you'll have an awfully hard time playing this game.

the simple fact is this: missiles are pretty much the best of the best in terms of weapons in this game. if they didn't have the drawback of being incredibly expensive, nobody would ever use anything else.

also, i suspect that your GMs may be fairly attached to keeping your group desperate for money for some reason... 5,000 credits is not something i'd just throw in the garbage, but really... have you looked at the costs for repairing stuff in this game? heck, have you looked at the costs for *anything* in this game? you can't even buy a vibro-knife with that.

really, i see only 2 possibilities:

1) money is intended to be fairly plentiful, and in turn is expected to be spent rather quickly.

2) any technology-based character is designed to be doomed to an inevitable downward spiral that culminates in a loss of all gear and a complete dependance on those in the party who were smart enough to choose other sources of power to keep them alive and *maybe* be permitted to participate in combat.

stuff costs a lot in this game, and money is a key resource for many characters to ever have a hope of improving themselves or even just to stay functional at all. seriously, look at the OCCs in RUE to get an idea of how much money should be available to characters; 12 hours of a cyber-doc's time is worth an extra 15,000/15% credit discount on cybernetics (note their base discount). 12 hours of an operator's time is worth a 35,000/35% credit discount. likewise, rogue scholars can trade in 24 hours of work for a 15,000/50% credit discount to the black market (others do often grant a 40% discount though), while the rogue scientist enjoys a rate of 20,000/20% per 12 hours.

simply put, if 5,000 credits is breaking the bank, it's time to talk to the GM about resource availability. certainly, save it for a special occasion, but bear in mind that spending 5,000 credits now may save you a lot more credits later, because after all... if 12 hours of an operator's time is worth 35,000 credits to the black market, that's only because they're going to charge someone else more than that for repairing their gear, otherwise the black market wouldn't be turning a profit.

as i recall, the official costs for repairs are something to the tune of 1,000 credits per MDC for body armour, and 10,000 per MDC forpower armour (can't recall which one vehicles are done at, but the main point is, it isn't cheap).

so if launching that volley of mini-missiles prevents just 5 points of damage to your body armour, you didn't just lose 4,800 credits; you gained a net of 200 credits (the real loss is that now you won't have those mini-missiles later).
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Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Kagashi »

Shark_Force wrote:there's a difference between what the PCs buy, and what is common. there is likewise a difference between something being commonly available, and something being commonly used.

if i wanted to, i could go buy a 50,000 dollar car right now. it's not hard to find. if i wanted one, and had the money to blow on a 50,000 dollar car, i could get one in short order.

but if i go outside and watch cars on the road, i'm going to see a heck of a lot more cars that cost 20,000 dollars or less. not because 50,000 dollar cars are unavailable or anything... simply because most people buy less expensive cars that do just about everything those 50,000 dollar cars do, at a fraction of the price.


Yeah...so? You originally had a beef with the fact kinetic armor wasnt available, not what was commonly used. In case you forgot how to scroll up, this is what you said:
Shark_Force 21 Sep 2014 wrote:(only plasma missiles can be ignored outright by immunity to fire or energy, every other missile type is basically kinetic damage, and i dunno where you got this crazy idea that kinetic-resistant armour is commonly available, but it really isn't).


I presented three canon sources of kinetic resistant armor and suddenly that wasnt apparently good enough. Regardless, since I cannot predict what word you will choose to use next post, anything I really put here is moot.

Shark_Force wrote:also, on my point 1, that should have been "missile" not "mini-missile".


Again, I cannot predict what variables you will present on your next post that you have not already thrown out there. The topic was specifically about the Ulti-Max's mini-missles. When pointed out that a mini-missile is toast by anything with 2Dx damage, you suddenly meant to say all missiles. Okay.

SF wrote: also, i suspect that your GMs may be fairly attached to keeping your group desperate for money for some reason... 5,000 credits is not something i'd just throw in the garbage, but really... have you looked at the costs for repairing stuff in this game? heck, have you looked at the costs for *anything* in this game? you can't even buy a vibro-knife with that.

really, i see only 2 possibilities:

1) money is intended to be fairly plentiful, and in turn is expected to be spent rather quickly.

2) any technology-based character is designed to be doomed to an inevitable downward spiral that culminates in a loss of all gear and a complete dependance on those in the party who were smart enough to choose other sources of power to keep them alive and *maybe* be permitted to participate in combat.


Most likely closer to #2. PCs are intentionally given a lot of equipment starting off. It may be the most wealthy they will ever be in a campaign when they are only level 1.

If you *really* pay attention to what people actually get canonically get paid, according to CWC, you will find a Lieutenant General in the CS only earns 5,500 credits a month. According to Rifts Mercenaries, Mercs working for "Outrageous Salary!" can earn 8000 credits a week at best. Most of those guys are earning only 700 credits a week (which that category costs 40 points out of 200 for the most common category for the typical merc company), and this is the best category possible.

So, good luck buying those four mini missiles you shot at that dude in Bushman armor because you wanted a quick kill for 4800 credits after you pay for all your bills each month. MD weapons in general are SUPPOSED to be insanely expensive. Your view of how much is out there is skewed in the fact that every character starts with all sorts of gadgets in character creation. That Vibro Knife you mention is SUPPOSED to be expensive. It deals the same damage as a modern ANTI TANK MISSILE with one swipe. That's quite powerful. There really should be A LOT more SDC weapons in Rifts for this very reason. Most people simply do not have much. And for anybody able to unleash volleys of missiles willy nilly, they better be working for a major faction of Rifts like the CS or Braddoks Bad Boys who could afford such tactics, or they will be trying to find uses for empty missile launcher tubes after their first battle.

SK wrote:stuff costs a lot in this game, and money is a key resource for many characters to ever have a hope of improving themselves or even just to stay functional at all. seriously, look at the OCCs in RUE to get an idea of how much money should be available to characters; 12 hours of a cyber-doc's time is worth an extra 15,000/15% credit discount on cybernetics (note their base discount). 12 hours of an operator's time is worth a 35,000/35% credit discount. likewise, rogue scholars can trade in 24 hours of work for a 15,000/50% credit discount to the black market (others do often grant a 40% discount though), while the rogue scientist enjoys a rate of 20,000/20% per 12 hours.


Discounts? Really? I get 10% just for being military, doesn't mean I take advantage of it 24 hours a day. Discounts are easy to throw around, in order to use them, you have to have the cash to buy with. Take a look at the same examples you gave me and note how little these guys really have starting off. Or peek in Rifts Mercenaries and see how much they *really* get paid. An experienced operator, body fixer or cyber doc can earn 10%-60% of what folks are getting (remember that 700 credits per week? 700 * 1.6 = 1120 credits a week). With that monetary total, NOW apply your discount.

simply put, if 5,000 credits is breaking the bank, it's time to talk to the GM about resource availability. certainly, save it for a special occasion, but bear in mind that spending 5,000 credits now may save you a lot more credits later, because after all... if 12 hours of an operator's time is worth 35,000 credits to the black market, that's only because they're going to charge someone else more than that for repairing their gear, otherwise the black market wouldn't be turning a profit.


Or I could say your GM is too generous and lets you play in God Mode. Me personally, Id rather be able to work through a problem than have an "I Win" button like infinite resources. I think your view of the economy of Rifts is very skewed as is the overall use of MDC weaponry and equipment.

as i recall, the official costs for repairs are something to the tune of 1,000 credits per MDC for body armour, and 10,000 per MDC forpower armour (can't recall which one vehicles are done at, but the main point is, it isn't cheap).

so if launching that volley of mini-missiles prevents just 5 points of damage to your body armour, you didn't just lose 4,800 credits; you gained a net of 200 credits (the real loss is that now you won't have those mini-missiles later).
[/quote][/quote]

In a war of attrition between two nations (Tolkeen vs CS for example) I agree, its a sound tactic reminiscent of Ronald Reagan. But not for Jimmy the Vagabond who is the town champion because he happens to be the only guy in town to own a rusty Wilks laser rifle and a suit of plastic man armor; which was the original feel of Rifts before 30+ world books of power creep.
I want to see from Palladium:
Updated Aug 2015
-Rifts: Dark Woods/Deep South, Space 110 PA, Scandinavia
-Mechanoids: Space (MDC)
-Robotech: Errata for Marines timeline, Masters Deluxe with SC and UEEF gear, Spaceships
-Updated Errata for post-2006 printings of Rifts books
-Searchable, quality PDFs/E-pubs of current Rifts titles
Shark_Force
Palladin
Posts: 7128
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm

Re: Ulti-Max, pre-Rifts tech?

Unread post by Shark_Force »

:rolleyes:

the complaint was that missiles in general were too expensive. i had mini-missiles on the mind, i typed mini-missiles. it was an accident. those of us who are mere mortals suffer from them occasionally, but i'm sure a perfect being such as yourself wouldn't know anything about that.

furthermore, of the three armours you listed as commonly available, one of them was just released in a book that not everyone owns or has knowledge of the contents (and is likely still in the process of being made available), another is naruni gear which is specifically noted as being hard to find due to the fact that the CS will murder anyone they find using it, and destroy any place they find selling it. one store in merctown for the entire planet is *not* good availability. the third is, once again, in the hands of a single group who do not share their secrets and actively track down anyone who gets a hand on their technology. i'd say i'm sorry for not owning every single palladium product that would allow me to know about the one kinetic-resistant armour that will one day be widely available, but really i'm not.

as to your CS military and mercenary figures, here's the thing: CS military don't pay for their mini-missiles. neither do mercenaries who work on an hourly basis (there's an entire separate category that tells you how much access you have to gear resupply). i suppose you *could* design the crappiest mercenary company in the world that expects the mercenaries to pay for their own ammunition, but then again, since they'd all be bankrupt about 5 seconds into the first fight your company picks, i don't imagine those mercenary companies exist for very long since the second fight they get into will feature a significant portion of their troops not having any armour or ammunition, since they blew all their money on booze and prostitutes.

as to the pay a lieutenant general gets, well, generally speaking working for the military doesn't make you rich unless the military is incredibly corrupt (and even then, it's not your wages that are making you rich). for the money an operator gets working for a mercenary company, that's in addition to ammunition, room and board, and the protection inherent in traveling everywhere with a bunch of heavily-armed violent people who all want to stay on your good side. it does not represent the maximum income you can expect to make, by any means.

firing off missiles is not something you do all the time. but when you get into a bad spot, you do it, and whoever it is that has to pay your bills is *glad* of it, because it's a hell of a lot cheaper to buy a few more missiles to cover emergencies than it is to repair your armour.

i never said i have infinite resources. i never said i don't work through problems. certainly, i don't use missiles (mini or otherwise) as my first weapon of choice for every situations (actually, my preference is to use characters with magic or psionics and make use of techno-wizardry devices of all descriptions as often as i can). but if it comes down to it, i would rather spend my money on ammunition that will shorten a fight greatly and result in taking less damage than spend my money on repairing my armour, particularly since repairing armour is so expensive that using those missiles will save more money than it costs.

simply put, if you cannot afford to buy mini-missiles for emergencies, you cannot afford to repair your armour either. if you cannot afford to repair your armour, you will die if you get into a fight. if you never get into a fight, then congratulations, those emergency mini-missiles you bought are going to last a long time (and so will your armour, for that matter). but, when an emergency comes, you're gonna pay one way or the other, and i personally would much prefer to pay to launch missiles at the other guy than pay for the damage that came from getting shot repeatedly due to a lack of firepower in a desperate situation.
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