Rules time!

[drewkitty ~..~]

Ok, I have a couple questions that lead to an argument in game. perhaps someone official from palladium can help.

First one is with magic, My interpretation of magic is this:
I cast one level 1-8 spell. that takes half of the round to cast since mage APM with spells is 2 per round.
So if I want to cast 1 spell that round and attack that would leave me with HALF my available APM.
Logical? No? Please correct me if that is wrong.

Second one is with the archery skill.
The WP skill states that you get 2 shots at level 1 then more at 2,3,5,7,9,12

So, my character with 4 apm but a Rate of fire of 5 can fire 4 shots a turn since I only have 4 apm.
Correct? No? please someone help!

If possible it would be awesome from the actual palladium staff to address this!

According to the same question, posed in the RBoM Q&A section, the answer is the spell casting replaces two of the char's APM.
But if you remember that with out importing the "two attacks for living" most PF chars with an H2H have only two APM.
The two spell attacks per melee is a carry over from PF1 where mages had their own magic exp. leveling table (much like a H2H leveling table.) That gave them more spell attacks per melee as they leveled up.
[There are new APM based spell casting times in RUE. which I, a player who dislikes playing rifts, find better then the two per melee rule in the pf book. One of the reasons dislike the PF rules, is because the magic rate of fire does not increase with exp.]

Archery: The archery rate of fire replaces the h2h APM.
So if the char has 4 APM and a RoF of 5, he gets to shoot 5 times, unless the char moves. (parry, dodge or changing position)

[pblackcrow]

My group uses PPE channeling rules from rifter 21(?).

[GMDijarian]

This is probably a little out to the ordinary but my group uses the new Rifts Ultimate Edition Rules for spell casting.

Level 1-5 one action
Level 6-10 two actions
Level 11-15 three actions
spells of legend melee round

as for archery rate of fire i allow the character to shoot as many arrows as his rate of fire is, but only in the amount of actions as his attacks per melee.

ex. Erueon the Elven Longbowman has 4 apm and a rate of fire of 5

first action: shoots one arrow
second action: shoots two arrows
third action: shoots one arrow
fourth action: shoot one arrow

this allows for movie like moments of epic gameplay in my opinon....

[The Beast]

ok the archery issue seems resolved. after drewkitty posted it made sense to me.

Can anyone explain the magic part though? By how it's written the default magic rules would allow for example: a mage with 4 APM to cast one spell. then if he did that seeing as half the melee round is done he would still have half his APM's remaining IE:2.
Obviously there is a bunch of alternative rules for different ways of addressing magic but I would like a statement on the original basebook rules if I am wrong or right. Yes, drewkitty posted about some book that has it but I don't know his acronym for the book he's mentioning!

The book he's mentioning is the Rifts Book of Magic.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. The concept behind it using up half of your melee action/attacks I believe is the fact that it's meant to use invocations. So, no matter how fast your reflexes are, how fast you can run or move your hands, you still have to say X words to cast Y spell. As a result, it'll always take so much time. So, in the instance of only two spells per melee round, it effectively takes 7 seconds to cast a spell. No matter how fast you can run, how good you are at beating in someone's face, having to say those words and any other type of channeling energy will still take the same time. Now the rules in Rifts: Ultimate Edition did change the rules for casting time (this was listed above, and how long it takes), but that was the original concept I do believe. Hopefully that helps. Before I go, I'll leave a list of the acronyms from drewkitty's post. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

RBoM Q&A: Rifts Book of Magic (Question & Answer section)
APM: Attacks Per Melee
PF: Palladium Fantasy
H2H: Hand to Hand
PF1: Palladium Fantasy, First Edition (we're currently on Second Edition)
RUE: Rifts Ultimate Edition

[drewkitty ~..~]

If you don't know what the abbreviation that is used then the Abbreviations used on this forum topic is the place to go.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Examples of a mage with 4 APM casting two spells per melee

eg1
action
spell
spell
action
eg2
spell
action
spell
action
eg3
spell
action
action
spell
eg4
action
action
spell
spell
eg5
spell
spell
action
action
eg6
action
spell
action
spell


I believe that covers all the combinations that involve the mage casting two spells per melee.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Examples of a mage with 4 APM casting two spells per melee

eg1
action
spell
spell
action
eg2
spell
action
spell
action
eg3
spell
action
action
spell
eg4
action
action
spell
spell
eg5
spell
spell
action
action
eg6
action
spell
action
spell


I believe that covers all the combinations that involve the mage casting two spells per melee.

I'm guessing that is based off the version of the magic rules you use?
As for your link it might be worth putting something like that in a signature or something since I immagine I won't be the only person to ask that sort of question

Thanks prysus and the beast for your insight!

According to the same question, posed in the RBoM Q&A section, the answer is the spell casting replaces two of the char's APM.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. There's a few problems with your examples drewkitty. I'll use the Rifts Book of Magic (RBoM) as well for simplicity, and we're still using the original rules (not the R:UE rules).

1) It states it "typically" costs 2 (or 3, you conveniently edited that part out, but I'll ignore that for now) attacks per melee. The fact in Rifts characters start with 4 attacks per melee plays no bearing on this fact. ((Personally, I play PF starting with 4 attacks per melee as well, but I'll admit for now that is a house ruling.)) Examples: Power Punch costs two attacks per melee in PF and Rifts. Sniper costs two attacks per melee in PF and Rifts. There is nothing suggesting that magic breaks this rules. Anything else is a house rule.

2) Your example either shows one spell being cast, which means you are forgetting a mage can't be interrupted, or it shows two spells, in which case a character with 4 attacks per melee would use ALL their attacks. You're either wrong or using a house rule. I suppose you could be using R:UE rules, in which case you're ignoring the fact he asked for it from the original rules.

3) The example in Rifts Book of Magic also says "typically" 2 to 3. By that it clearly has to be indicating that most characters only have 4 to 7 attacks per melee (this covers a typical character until their level is in the double digits at least, probably until level 14 or 15 which is not a "typical" character). Why is it so clear? The same example also says a character with 7 attacks per melee can only cast 2 spells. If, by your logic, it did only cost 2, then that person with 7 attacks per melee would be able to cast 3 spells and still have an action left over. It actually goes on to say that someone who can cast 3 spells per melee is extremely rare, reserved for powerful beings, such as gods.

All right, that should be all for now. My main reason for responding wasn't to argue with drewkitty so much as to try and clarify things for tycho0042 (last thing I want to do is get a newbie confused with inaccurate information). Thank you for your time and patience one and all, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Personally I do like the spell casting times introduced with RUE, and use them. So things in this topic are mainly academic to me. When the PPE channeling rules came out in R20 (or was it 21?) I switched over to them.

The reason I even mention the 2 APM for living, is because most ppl (here) add them to their PF chars as matter of course.

[The Dark Elf]

Use the RUE ones, they're simplest and will cross over if you play rifts!

As posted above:

Level 1-5 one action
Level 6-10 two actions
Level 11-15 three actions
spells of legend melee round

[Shawn Merrow]

Use the RUE ones, they're simplest and will cross over if you play rifts!

As posted above:

Level 1-5 one action
Level 6-10 two actions
Level 11-15 three actions
spells of legend melee round

Mystery of Magic also has them as optional for PFRPG on page 55. I use them in Nightbane and have had no problem.