How Do We Get More People To Play Rifts

[Icefalcon]

I'm not sure how any player is supposed to feel like he's contributing much to the party at that size. That's not a group of PC's, that's a mercenary company on the hoof. Not sure how you manage to give everyone adequate screentime.

Anything much over 8 is really pushing it. With the Palladium System unless you're playing P. Fantasy it seems to me that anything over 6 is pushing it actually.

How do you handle all the inevitable logistics issues? How do you keep the extraneous players from just getting bored?

I used to use a sub-GM to help handle some of the off-screen stuff (like shopping, some NPC interactions and other situations), run some of the bad guys, monitor some of the table talk to catch anything interesting said in character and other small jobs. I also kept many of the story lines dynamic so that each and every character involved in the story had their own specialty within the group as a whole. Of course, at the time I was running this game, all of the players worked very well together. There was very little stepping on toes and bickering.

[Marrowlight]

I'm not sure how any player is supposed to feel like he's contributing much to the party at that size. That's not a group of PC's, that's a mercenary company on the hoof. Not sure how you manage to give everyone adequate screentime.

Anything much over 8 is really pushing it. With the Palladium System unless you're playing P. Fantasy it seems to me that anything over 6 is pushing it actually.

How do you handle all the inevitable logistics issues? How do you keep the extraneous players from just getting bored?

A mercenary company is a very proper comparison. In my personal experience with parties that size (played in two long form campaigns, ran three, that all had 10+ and two of which broke 16+) it just meant a drastic increase in scale. Instead of exploring a cave they were exploring a city. Instead of helping liberate a town from some highwaymen, they were helping a town against an invading town. Beef up the numbers of villains, then allow the party to break itself down into smaller units based on class make-up, and truthfully you have some of the most exciting games I've ever run or been a part of.

Best game I've ever run had 13 players and lasted for years. It was beyond epic, and no one ever was hurting for screentime.



and, as a personal GM note, I manage games like I'm a pitcher with runners on first and second. Sure, I need to focus on the guy at the plate - but I can, and will, at any time, cut to those runners and put them on the spot. People don't get bored in my RL games (pbp and pbem stuff you can't really do that natch) because they don't get left alone long enough for it to happen.

[Damian Magecraft]

I'm not sure how any player is supposed to feel like he's contributing much to the party at that size. That's not a group of PC's, that's a mercenary company on the hoof. Not sure how you manage to give everyone adequate screentime.

Anything much over 8 is really pushing it. With the Palladium System unless you're playing P. Fantasy it seems to me that anything over 6 is pushing it actually.

How do you handle all the inevitable logistics issues? How do you keep the extraneous players from just getting bored?

by not having started at 20...
We worked up to it (advantage of being an old grognard)
we started with the "traditional" 4 or 5 players.
Then one of them had a friend want to join and we said sure whats just one more.
and so on until it grew to be 20 or 30 players.
How do you keep a party that size enthralled?
By becoming an observer of human nature.
By using the tricks of daytime drama...
The cliff hanger break is your friend.
a party that size is going to break up into smaller groups all on its own and this seems counter intuitive but LET THEM!
When they break up spend time building the tension for one group (a Brobdingnagian vocabulary will help with that) dont just say things like "and in the room is a troll what do you do?" use your words to transport them to the scene; describe the the smells, the sounds, the feel, as well as the sights.
Then when you have them on the edge of their seats DO NOT reveal whats behind that door; instead jump cut to the next group. Rinse and repeat.
Do it right and when you spend that extra time with player #12 to tell a short vignette about his character no one will complain (if any thing they will hang on every word).
You the GM are a story teller so tell a story not an anecdote.
That is how you run large parties.

[Godogma]

All that is predicated on having a group which isn't in any way disruptive or prone to bouts of ADD or the like. *shrug*

[Damian Magecraft]

All that is predicated on having a group which isn't in any way disruptive or prone to bouts of ADD or the like. *shrug*

so speaks someone who does not suffer from ADD or ADHD...
ADD/ADHD is not a person with a short attention span it is a person who is easily bored and has a low tolerance for boredom.
I am ADHD yet I can and do run and play in 12+ hr long sessions with over 30 people in the group.
3/4 of my game group are diagnosed as ADD/ADHD and yet they too are able to sit through 12+ hr long sessions.
its all about keeping their interests.
There are studies that show that ADD/ADHD suffers can and do dedicate long periods of their attention to video games, novels, and a multitude of time intensive hobbies.
It is all about catching their interest and keeping it.

[Marrowlight]

All that is predicated on having a group which isn't in any way disruptive or prone to bouts of ADD or the like. *shrug*

Dude, I ran a group of 16+ first time gamers who were all also college freshman for one of those examples. I had disruption, frat rushers, ADHD, rookies at beer, etc, etc, etc.

I also easily, and frequently, control audiences of a couple hundred people, and have for years. It's about having a number of skills, and innate abilities such as reading a person at a glance...but mostly, it involves having the nerve to just do it and to never let the punches fluster you. It's just a role-playing game. They want to be there (and if they don't, get rid of 'em), you just have to provide a reason for them to let that desire out.

[Godogma]

That entirely depends on how severe their ADD / ADHD is - trust me, I have a nephew and a couple of friends with it. They have the attention span of a small bird. They'll boot up a video game or something, need a soda or the bathroom and be gone for 45 minutes because something distracts them on the way back. Or the way there. Sure; the game has their attention as long as they focus completely on that... they get a text or a call or want a soda or the bathroom then they go off on a tangent.

I've run games for them, it's an exercise in sending someone to fetch them a lot of the time if they get up from the table.

ADD and ADHD are both over diagnosed and in lots of cases the person is just bored... People have to reach a certain age before the tests are even accurate from what I understand. But everyone is different who has it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for the disruptive part? Even one disruptive player can ruin a small game of 4-6 players, a single disruptive person with over thirty people gaming quickly turns into a bunch of disruptive people. One GM can't in my opinion give all the players the attention they need, nor is the game set up to run for 30 people. I've had combats lasting hours with a squad vs the party - ludicrous is the only thought that comes up for trying to run a combat between 30 players and enemy combatants in Rifts.

As for you running a game for a group of 100 people? Yeah right. Maybe a LARP game, but I can't buy you running a game of any paladium system for that many people. I'm calling BS on that one, I'd have to see it to believe it.

If you and your 30 players are happy with one GM and that many people more power to you. I'm not; and most of the people I know would rather top out at about 8 or less players. The Pathfinder game at the FLGS kept getting broken down into smaller groups for just that reason. Smaller groups work better. 22 people showed up, the game got broken down into 3 nights a week instead of just Saturday and everything worked better all around.

[Marrowlight]

As for you running a game for a group of 100 people? Yeah right. Maybe a LARP game, but I can't buy you running a game of any paladium system for that many people. I'm calling BS on that one, I'd have to see it to believe it.

I said control audiences, not running a game of. Different events, similar skillsets.

[Godogma]

As for you running a game for a group of 100 people? Yeah right. Maybe a LARP game, but I can't buy you running a game of any paladium system for that many people. I'm calling BS on that one, I'd have to see it to believe it.

I said control audiences, not running a game of. Different events, similar skillsets.

And yet, completely different. Speaking to people and holding their attention for a lecture/other entertainemnt is entirely different than actually keeping a large group of people entertained and running an RPG game. There may be similar skillsets involved, but there's simply no method you can use to keep up with that many players.

At anything over 8 you can't ensure that you can see the dice and make sure no one is fudging anything; the players can't see your rolls to make sure you aren't fudging things in the enemy's favor (after dealing with one GM who wouldn't let us kill a recurring enemy and fudged the dice rolls so the damn guy never died I refuse to play with a GM that doesn't run everything above board where I can see the dice), depending on the table set up you can't make eye contact and let the players "feel" that they have your attention when their turn rolls around... Honor system can help with part of it but other parts not so much.

There are many issues involved that have to be considered that simply aren't a problem in a lecture/you entertaining someone via another method.

I personally don't feel comfortable running games with more than around 10 players maximum - and it has to be the right players for that to work. If you don't have players willing to work together and ensure they function well as a team and play as a team instead of everyone wanting to go off and do something different you get issues.

I have a friend who can comfortably run 12 to 14 people, though he prefers smaller groups than that.

I suppose that all depends on the GM however. EDIT: And the system. Some systems work much better with larger groups than others.

[Marrowlight]

I was tempted to just drop all this, because you're being pretty rigid, so why bother, right? But, I noticed something in your paragraph about

Smaller groups work better.

With Damian's example, his group evolved over a period of time, with people who were already playing bringing other people to join in, etc.

With my groups, those that I ran, they were all hand-picked. In one case they were gamers from another group I'd been in for a while coupled with people I'd known for years coupled with a few referred gamers. With another, they were all comic shop regulars who'd been riffing on each other every Tuesday or Wednesday for years. With the third, we all lived in the same dorm, and most of us were the same major.

AKA - they were all friends. Not just a bunch of folks who showed up at a shop for the hell of it one day. I'd be bored as a GM putting up with that scenario. And it would be a nightmare to try to pre-plan that. With all of my games, I knew my players characters backwards n forwards before I even started building the adventures, as well as most of my players. Running 15+ isn't easy. It's fun, it's awesome, but it isn't easy - and it shouldn't be attempted with a bunch of unknowns. Why put yourself through that?

No wonder you're cold to the idea. I'd probably purge at least half of that 22 before the night was over. But then, I dislike at least half of the gamers I've ever met out in the wild, and thus don't invite them to my games. The only time I've ever allowed players who don't mesh well with the rest of the party is when they were the random staffer who had the keys to the shop so we could stay as long as we liked after hours - and that was a sacrifice everyone agreed to.

[Damian Magecraft]

As for you running a game for a group of 100 people? Yeah right. Maybe a LARP game, but I can't buy you running a game of any paladium system for that many people. I'm calling BS on that one, I'd have to see it to believe it.

I said control audiences, not running a game of. Different events, similar skillsets.

And yet, completely different. Speaking to people and holding their attention for a lecture/other entertainemnt is entirely different than actually keeping a large group of people entertained and running an RPG game. There may be similar skillsets involved, but there's simply no method you can use to keep up with that many players.

At anything over 8 you can't ensure that you can see the dice and make sure no one is fudging anything; the players can't see your rolls to make sure you aren't fudging things in the enemy's favor (after dealing with one GM who wouldn't let us kill a recurring enemy and fudged the dice rolls so the damn guy never died I refuse to play with a GM that doesn't run everything above board where I can see the dice), depending on the table set up you can't make eye contact and let the players "feel" that they have your attention when their turn rolls around... Honor system can help with part of it but other parts not so much.

There are many issues involved that have to be considered that simply aren't a problem in a lecture/you entertaining someone via another method.

I personally don't feel comfortable running games with more than around 10 players maximum - and it has to be the right players for that to work. If you don't have players willing to work together and ensure they function well as a team and play as a team instead of everyone wanting to go off and do something different you get issues.

I have a friend who can comfortably run 12 to 14 people, though he prefers smaller groups than that.

I suppose that all depends on the GM however. EDIT: And the system. Some systems work much better with larger groups than others.

and yet Marrowlight, Myself, and Kevin Sembiedia (yeah the creator guy), have done so.
at the second OH kevin had 27 people sign up to play in his game. and he ran it beautifully.

[Damian Magecraft]

and on another note we are not saying you "have" to run that many...
run what you are comfortable with.
You say 10 is your limit...
I know hobbyists who say you are lying and that it is impossible to run more than a party of 4.

[J_Danger]

I recently got my brother in on our Rifts game, he's a big gamer, WoW and Mass Effect being in his top few games. The thing that Rifts, and all table top games offer that even games on that epic of a scale, is no sandbox wall. If you start a phase world game and there's a plot going and instead your group decides to be pirates and wander the 3 galaxies, well then that's where the game goes. If you get all gung-ho and decide to shoot the first cop who gives your PC any crap, well then you get to see what it's like dealing with those repercussions. It's just that Rifts is bigger, it's bigger than all the shiny new games that have been coming out the past decade.

A video game would definitely pull fans, but probably wouldn't accurately (lol) represent the Rifts world, as it's different for all of us. Social media would get people to look, but they'd be turned away by these forums and the bickering and rule bashing that I constantly see. I think the best way to get people to play Rifts is talk it up and then offer to run a game. Table top roleplaying is a very personal experience, it's not Battlefield on XBOX live or 11.5 million players playing WoW, it's personal and huge. It's just something people have to see. How can they not fall in love with picking a Burster cause it sounds OP and dangerous as hell, then have them almost die to Coalition, crush some raiders and then save a burning orphanage

Bottom line, if you don't want Rifts to die off, man(or woman) up and run a game with new people.

[Godogma]

Yeah, two different situations there entirely.

The max friends we generally got up to gaming with was about 10 total - I live in a small town... The FLGS is more along the lines of MtG and Warhammer most of the time, but they do carry RPG content and we were running games as much to help the store as play (we had room for everyone to get together at 4 of the 6 residences those 10 folks lived at to play). The store makes bank on selling concessions on RPG night not on books...

Lots of people brings in lots of money. We essentially tried to grab the cliques of the folks who wanted to play and split them up into groups with each clique of friends being a different night. That big group was a major pain... if it hadn't been for the fact the FLGS owner was a friend of ours we'd have probably hurt his business and lots of people's feelings that first saturday when 22 people showed up.

[Marrowlight]

And yet, completely different. Speaking to people and holding their attention for a lecture/other entertainemnt is entirely different than actually keeping a large group of people entertained and running an RPG game. There may be similar skillsets involved, but there's simply no method you can use to keep up with that many players.

Letting this part drop. It's obviously distracting, and it isn't anything I really need to prove to anyone, so, off we go to what matters.

At anything over 8 you can't ensure that you can see the dice and make sure no one is fudging anything;

A: sure you can. You don't let them all roll at once, if it is an issue. You tell them not to touch their dice once they've hit the table, it it is an issue. And if you're really super convinced they're fudging their rolls that badly that is impacting play? Kill them and get rid of them. A night off from the game and a quick chat after will either fix them up or cause them to quit.

B: Let 'em fudge. So what? This isn't some official tournament with prizes and sponsors. If someone needs a hit or a dodge to go their way to not wreck their night, cool by me. If they're shredding the bad guys too quickly for me....I'll just add more. Or I'll bump their armor up a notch. Or whatever. Unless they're trying to fudge to hurt/kill another party member, it almost never even remotely bothers me. Again though, hand-picked players, friends. It really isn't an issue for my games, period.

the players can't see your rolls to make sure you aren't fudging things in the enemy's favor (after dealing with one GM who wouldn't let us kill a recurring enemy and fudged the dice rolls so the damn guy never died I refuse to play with a GM that doesn't run everything above board where I can see the dice),

The players can't see my rolls half the time anyway. Hell, in the location I'm playing in now, due to space issues, only four of the people game at the table, the rest of us are elsewhere in the room, on couches and chairs. I haven't seen my GM's dice rolls in about two or three years now. GM'ing is a trust thing - if your players don't trust you to the point where they demand to see your dice rolls, then you've already lost the battle. Period.

depending on the table set up you can't make eye contact and let the players "feel" that they have your attention when their turn rolls around...

So change the set-up, or don't play there? I'd never, ever, ever play in a location where as the GM I couldn't keep sharp eye contact on my players. That's just setting yourself up for unnecessary situations. Might as well wear sunglasses. Actually, technically I have worn sunglasses as a GM before, but they were polarized so I could see inside as if they were glasses. Was actually kinda fun. Anyway...

Honor system can help with part of it but other parts not so much.

Agreed. I'm just there to have a good time, and make sure everyone else does as well. Nothing else really matters to me as a GM. If people aren't having a good time, hell, a great time, then you've gotta mix stuff up. I find that if you teach that mindset to your players, or purge out players who are there for other reasons and prove unteachable, then the honor system is just kinda unnecessary.

I personally don't feel comfortable running games with more than around 10 players maximum - and it has to be the right players for that to work. If you don't have players willing to work together and ensure they function well as a team and play as a team instead of everyone wanting to go off and do something different you get issues.

You see issues, I see opportunities. First night out of the gate with one of the big gamer groups (this was a robotech game), the party landed on a planet and everyone poured out to do their thing thing. No one remembered to actually stay behind and secure/guard the ship. That was a well learned lesson for them all, that still gets brought up now, nearly a decade later. Even people who get along super great want to go off on their own from time to time - let them, and punish them with something fun and hard and memorable.

I have a friend who can comfortably run 12 to 14 people, though he prefers smaller groups than that.

I just like to game. I've run 1 person games, I've run 2 person games, I've topped out at around 20. They're all fun imo. My favorite group was about seven particular players, but if I could teleport folks in, and resurrect the dead, my favorite roster would be about 14 people. I'd run synnibar with those 14 people. Hell, I bought synnibar to run with about half of them (and then wisely swapped over to Amber).

I suppose that all depends on the GM however. EDIT: And the system. Some systems work much better with larger groups than others.

Yeah I'd not want to run rolemaster with that many. For me they were Rifts, Robotech, and Amber. Great games, great gamers.

[Godogma]

J_Danger, first you have to have people *WILLING* to play Rifts. I carted four boxes of books around in my car to the FLGS for 8 straight weeks to try and get people to play even one game of Rifts instead of Pathfinder which is the local game of choice.

Frankly, the books don't grab people's attention well; they're grayscale for the most part, the art in many places isn't that great depending on your taste and the layouts were obviously done by hand with many passages copied and pasted over. They also aren't marketed well and the system is an anachronism that doesn't make bringing in new players easy. Also, it doesn't help when none of the game stores are willing to stock the books because they just don't sell.

I buy the books for the setting; I've not been able to get anyone to play a game of Rifts or run a game of Rifts in a decade or more.

[Marrowlight]

Yeah, two different situations there entirely.

The max friends we generally got up to gaming with was about 10 total - I live in a small town... The FLGS is more along the lines of MtG and Warhammer most of the time, but they do carry RPG content and we were running games as much to help the store as play (we had room for everyone to get together at 4 of the 6 residences those 10 folks lived at to play). The store makes bank on selling concessions on RPG night not on books...

Lots of people brings in lots of money. We essentially tried to grab the cliques of the folks who wanted to play and split them up into groups with each clique of friends being a different night. That big group was a major pain... if it hadn't been for the fact the FLGS owner was a friend of ours we'd have probably hurt his business and lots of people's feelings that first saturday when 22 people showed up.

I've always kinda feared living in a small town for reasons like that.

Sounds like a smart money grab though - I hope it continues to work for the shop, in the split format.

[J_Danger]

Yeah, two different situations there entirely.

The max friends we generally got up to gaming with was about 10 total - I live in a small town... The FLGS is more along the lines of MtG and Warhammer most of the time, but they do carry RPG content and we were running games as much to help the store as play (we had room for everyone to get together at 4 of the 6 residences those 10 folks lived at to play). The store makes bank on selling concessions on RPG night not on books...

Lots of people brings in lots of money. We essentially tried to grab the cliques of the folks who wanted to play and split them up into groups with each clique of friends being a different night. That big group was a major pain... if it hadn't been for the fact the FLGS owner was a friend of ours we'd have probably hurt his business and lots of people's feelings that first saturday when 22 people showed up.

In our "golden age" of roleplaying we had a mini mecca at a local Denny's. We scored the banquet room every tuesday night and played everything. We played Yu-Gi-Oh (my friends are weird, I tried to tell them MTG was better), Heroclix, New World of Darkness, In Nomine, Hong Kong Action Theatre and definitely played a crapload of Rifts. There was a core group of about 7 of us and the rest would migrate in and out over several hours, setting up the card games or Heroclix or just watching to see what it was about. Super fun stuff. But yea, the only reason we were able to score a meeting room was that most of us made sure to order food and were barely worried about when it came out or if our drink was full. Our server was the same every week and knew we were borderline effortless, she could complain about her other tables to us and we were worth about 50 bucks extra, outside of her section.

[Marrowlight]

and on another note we are not saying you "have" to run that many...
run what you are comfortable with.
You say 10 is your limit...
I know hobbyists who say you are lying and that it is impossible to run more than a party of 4.

And yeah, hell no do you have to ever run that many. It can be done, it shouldn't always be done. Especially if you're in a small town scenario. The reason I was talking about letting staffers play? One of the stores I ran at had a set sat morning and sat night game for a decade plus. We didn't even start our sat night game until the store had officially closed and we kicked those crusty ole bastards out of there. I gamed in a place with that kind of gamer over-population. I could afford to be super picky. We'd wrap around 3 - 4 AM and usually have to chat with the cops as folks are taking their final smoke breaks outside the shop, etc.


And that party of 4 guy better be giving me some ***** NPCs for backup.

Last time I ran a party that small, I bit the bullet and played a priest of light that also had a batch of healing psionic powers as an NPC so the players could have flexibility.

[Godogma]

I'll freely admit that most of my reticence about big games is mostly because of the disruptive elements that came with them and some bad players/personality conflicts amongst the players that we had to deal with before we could get any gaming done. Some of the people we flat out told not to come back due to those issues.

I've played a couple of games at DragonCon and AWA that were large(15+ people), but those relied heavily on the skill of the GM and pregenerated characters and everyone knew that we weren't going to be getting a regular game to start with so we rolled with the adventure the GM had set out to run.

With the group of friends/trusted players scenario it's definitely seeming much more doable... It's just those marginal players that ruined big groups of players for me. I love to play up till right around 8-10 people then I hit my gunshy stage as far as playing goes. Much less running the game myself unless it's a group of all the gamers we've been able to make friends with in the area.

EDIT: On the other hand I enjoyed LARPing with the By Night rules, but there were around 4-5 GMs involved not just one. I'm guessing they all agreed on the overall plot beforehand and everyone other than that just played their characters... The rules are however very very minimal and dice non-existent.

[Damian Magecraft]

and on another note we are not saying you "have" to run that many...
run what you are comfortable with.
You say 10 is your limit...
I know hobbyists who say you are lying and that it is impossible to run more than a party of 4.

And yeah, hell no do you have to ever run that many. It can be done, it shouldn't always be done. Especially if you're in a small town scenario. The reason I was talking about letting staffers play? One of the stores I ran at had a set sat morning and sat night game for a decade plus. We didn't even start our sat night game until the store had officially closed and we kicked those crusty ole bastards out of there. I gamed in a place with that kind of gamer over-population. I could afford to be super picky. We'd wrap around 3 - 4 AM and usually have to chat with the cops as folks are taking their final smoke breaks outside the shop, etc.


And that party of 4 guy better be giving me some ***** NPCs for backup.

Last time I ran a party that small, I bit the bullet and played a priest of light that also had a batch of healing psionic powers as an NPC so the players could have flexibility.

I have found that the reason for that 4 and only 4 mind set stems from how adventure and scenario books are set up by those "other" games...
They are almost always designed for the 4 core classes (fighter, mage, cleric, rogue) no more, no less.
For them the classes might as well be re-named Brute, Brains, Healer, Face.
Take a look at the "in depth" critiques of the classes outside of the core 4...
many have comments like "it makes a good 5th class"
and they do not mean that in a favorable light.

[Marrowlight]

Some of the people we flat out told not to come back due to those issues.

Good for you!

I've played a couple of games at DragonCon and AWA that were large(15+ people), but those relied heavily on the skill of the GM and pregenerated characters and everyone knew that we weren't going to be getting a regular game to start with so we rolled with the adventure the GM had set out to run.

Yeah. Even if I didn't get nauseous from the bizarre blueberry funk of a gamer's hall, I've never really jived with the notion of Con games - one-shots with strangers? meh. I've done a couple where they were indie games and the writers were running a demo (oh Ironclaw, how you suckered me out of a hundred bucks of product over the years with that demo), but otherwise no thanks. With that said, I'll always be super-super thankful Erick Wujcik took me and four or so other people aside (I really wish I could even remember why this happened) at D*Con one year, broke into a track room in the hotel, and ran an on the spot game of his. One of my favorite gaming memories, magnified by the knowledge that I'll never get a chance to run under him again. Man was a beast of a GM.

With the group of friends/trusted players scenario it's definitely seeming much more doable... It's just those marginal players that ruined big groups of players for me. I love to play up till right around 8-10 people then I hit my gunshy stage as far as playing goes. Much less running the game myself unless it's a group of all the gamers we've been able to make friends with in the area.

If you think you want to try it, beyond stuff like "plan the **** out of it and have 2x more NPCs than you'll ever need on hand", if you ever wanna ask questions for logistics, I'm sure Damian, myself, and others who've done it would be super glad to help. Also, I'd really recommend finding the guy (or girl) who compliments you best as a GM, and ask them to watch your back as you take that first plunge, and be ready to have them help you if you start to get twitchy from it all.

[Marrowlight]

I have found that the reason for that 4 and only 4 mind set stems from how adventure and scenario books are set up by those "other" games...
They are almost always designed for the 4 core classes (fighter, mage, cleric, rogue) no more, no less.
For them the classes might as well be re-named Brute, Brains, Healer, Face.
Take a look at the "in depth" critiques of the classes outside of the core 4...
many have comments like "it makes a good 5th class"
and they do not mean that in a favorable light.

Ah-ha! Totally out of my wheelhouse of experience there. My personal history as a gamer (in terms of systems I played under) is just bizarre and contrary to those who suckled on the milk of D&D/AD&D.

[Marrowlight]

J_Danger, first you have to have people *WILLING* to play Rifts. I carted four boxes of books around in my car to the FLGS for 8 straight weeks to try and get people to play even one game of Rifts instead of Pathfinder which is the local game of choice.

Frankly, the books don't grab people's attention well; they're grayscale for the most part, the art in many places isn't that great depending on your taste and the layouts were obviously done by hand with many passages copied and pasted over. They also aren't marketed well and the system is an anachronism that doesn't make bringing in new players easy. Also, it doesn't help when none of the game stores are willing to stock the books because they just don't sell.

I buy the books for the setting; I've not been able to get anyone to play a game of Rifts or run a game of Rifts in a decade or more.

Was thinking about this post, and your problem. OK, I'm going to assume you can get at least two of your friends to help you with this. If not, maybe one friend and talk to the store owner (since if it works it'd be revenue for him as well). Whatever day is the day your store gets its new product in - I'm guessing Wed but maybe not - set up and run the coolest, wickedest 2 man Rifts game you can build. Let the two guys build some really exotic stuff, throw some of the crazier things Palladium has to offer at them, and have a ball doing it - and see who all just happens to wander over and watch you guys for a while. They're geeks, man. We all are, to one degree or another. Seeing other geeks having a genuine good time doing something is going to attract people. And if they can get in on that action in an easy "two hours a week" kinda initial set-up, sweet!

Alternatively, get 3 or 4 people, and run Dead Reign. Everyone keeps saying Zombies are played out, and that's true for new product imo, but I don't think people are actually even close to tired of killing zombies, killing them dead. If you can't get some Zombie interest, especially on the Wednesday where the Walking Dead comes out...then yeah, your market is dead.


addendum - have some pre-gen characters and trash dice with you, so if you do get interest, they can jump right in then and there.

[Godogma]

Eh, it's mostly just the FLGS that we keep running into the pains in the rear at. Our core group of around 10 people if we ever got them all back together at one time again we could rock out with with any of the dozens of games that make up our personal libraries of tomes.

But playing at the FLGS part of the reasoning behind it is to introduce new gamers and bring in more business for the store... Unfortunately we never know who we were gonna wind up with or what their personalities were gonna be like...

For instance we have an "evil" party that only works together out of enlightened self interest and 80% of that party has had to reroll characters to get to that point. Before we finally got it beaten into their skulls that the party couldn't work at cross purposes and actually get anywhere.

Also, you can play Magic or any card game/play Warhammer with someone for months and they can still wind up being one of the biggest douches and wastes of air at an RPG table you could possibly imagine.

We didn't have any problems with the whole "4" thing even with D&D and AD&D and now Pathfinder - then again, we don't make it a point of running canned adventures. Generally because before we ever get toward wanting to run one we've already sat down and tore apart the logical fallacies that just won't work (it's the Player's job to determine what direction the game goes in and most of those canned adventures only work if someone is working a choo choo on the players).

[Marrowlight]

Also, you can play Magic or any card game/play Warhammer with someone for months and they can still wind up being one of the biggest douches and wastes of air at an RPG table you could possibly imagine.

Truer words...


How do you guys handle the inbetween steps of "they show up" to "they devolve into pains that disrupt my game and now I must eat their eyes out!"?

[Dunia]

I know that I would never participate in any game where the GM force me to buy a core book or any supplement.
From the culture where I come from, the GM is the one with the books, you sit down with the GM and make the character together - so that there is a good communication between the player and GM. maybe some will buy a book, but if it happens, it is more if that player himself/herself wans to be a GM at a later day.

From the culture you come from...how big are the normal parties? In some games I've run, I could pull that off, but in others, it'd take me weeks just to get all those characters created.

When I play Rifts, I get maybe 4 or 5 players.
When I played Traveller TNE i had a group of 10 players at first and after 3rd year of playing four more joined
I am currently in a Vampire sabbat campaign with 8 other players
Though I am most comfortable with 2-6 players when I GM.

[Godogma]

J_Danger, first you have to have people *WILLING* to play Rifts. I carted four boxes of books around in my car to the FLGS for 8 straight weeks to try and get people to play even one game of Rifts instead of Pathfinder which is the local game of choice.

Frankly, the books don't grab people's attention well; they're grayscale for the most part, the art in many places isn't that great depending on your taste and the layouts were obviously done by hand with many passages copied and pasted over. They also aren't marketed well and the system is an anachronism that doesn't make bringing in new players easy. Also, it doesn't help when none of the game stores are willing to stock the books because they just don't sell.

I buy the books for the setting; I've not been able to get anyone to play a game of Rifts or run a game of Rifts in a decade or more.

Was thinking about this post, and your problem. OK, I'm going to assume you can get at least two of your friends to help you with this. If not, maybe one friend and talk to the store owner (since if it works it'd be revenue for him as well). Whatever day is the day your store gets its new product in - I'm guessing Wed but maybe not - set up and run the coolest, wickedest 2 man Rifts game you can build. Let the two guys build some really exotic stuff, throw some of the crazier things Palladium has to offer at them, and have a ball doing it - and see who all just happens to wander over and watch you guys for a while. They're geeks, man. We all are, to one degree or another. Seeing other geeks having a genuine good time doing something is going to attract people. And if they can get in on that action in an easy "two hours a week" kinda initial set-up, sweet!

Alternatively, get 3 or 4 people, and run Dead Reign. Everyone keeps saying Zombies are played out, and that's true for new product imo, but I don't think people are actually even close to tired of killing zombies, killing them dead. If you can't get some Zombie interest, especially on the Wednesday where the Walking Dead comes out...then yeah, your market is dead.


addendum - have some pre-gen characters and trash dice with you, so if you do get interest, they can jump right in then and there.

The only problem is; we already have zombie games that are much simpler than Dead Reign likely is (I don't own a copy of that one so I don't know much about it - I have every Rifts book up to Black Market but it's honestly my favorite line other than PF) that they quite happily fill up on even though on average 2 to three characters get rerolled per game. We never get less than 8 people for zombie nights...

If I can swing the store owner on buying a couple of copies of the Dead Reign books for store use I'll test that theory though.

Wednesday isn't when stock comes in - the FLGS has something like 4 different distributors, I'm not sure if any of them carry any Palladium Books stuff but if they don't we can order online direct from PB.

With the really disruptive guys we take them aside and have a talk with them... On two occasions it's worked, on two others we've had to have the store owner tell them to leave (the RPG crowd was the only one left in the store at that point and technically the place was closed).

[Marrowlight]

OK, with Rifts and with Vampire I can see being able to pull off making that many characters in a night. Thanks!

[Marrowlight]

With the really disruptive guys we take them aside and have a talk with them... On two occasions it's worked, on two others we've had to have the store owner tell them to leave (the RPG crowd was the only one left in the store at that point and technically the place was closed).

oh man, is your FLGS a genuine GS and not a FLCS with a Game section? No wonder your base is so snobby. I was meaning the day new comics come out. Comic readers make fantastic new gamers for Palladium products imo. As an alternative for new blood, do you have a local college in the area?

And yeah, I imagine Deadlands or something like that is the game of choice...I was just saying Dead Reign because it familiarizes them with the P-System, and you can bridge to other lines (like Rifts) from there.


And what I meant more was....ok, they show up. What do you do with them to figure out if you want them to stay for more than milk and cookies? I imagine you're not having them bring characters, or are you, etc, etc.

[Godogma]

Yeah, it's a game store... MtG, Warhammer (fantasy and 40k), mini supplies, other mini games... Pathfinder... etc... There's a lot of comics in boxes from the owner's comic shop that went out of business but he generally sells them for 2.50$ or so each, other than some of the really rare stuff which he tries to sell at actual comic prices.

Well generally we keep character sheets in a filing cabinet at the store... Players tend to lose them from week to week at times without doing so...

We tend to give everyone a game or two to settle in if they're joining the group to play. If they're being disruptive after that point then we have issues... The first game we give them more leeway with a talking to if they didn't mesh well or were disruptive.

The second one is where we deal with them in more permanent fashion if all they're there for is to be disruptive.

[Eashamahel]

So, besides the fact that we all need to run games and do everything else every other player does for every other games, what can we do? Well, what does Rifts actually need or lack that other SUCCESFULL companies do? Let's start a list. It's going to be tech/new generation oriented, and it is NOT going to address the BASIC problems Palladium Books has (physical book quality, marketing, financial decisions, scheduling, distributors, getting your product line in order, ect, ect).

1. Podcasts
This one would be key. Best case scenario would be this style (http://www.baddice.co.uk), a daily podcast timing in at about 10 minutes with a weekly hourly podcast. This is extremely unlikely however. What Palladium SHOULD be working at is a weekly, 15 minute podcast, interviewing employees like writers and artists, as well as personalities like K.S. about the general goings on about the office ('we're all super excited about upcoming worldbook X!') which would be a good chance to talk up products, create interest and further interact with gamers/fans. Other Podcasts topics could include old book reviews and musings, little known facts, and just general talk. This level of connection and general interest increase amongst their established fanbase, as well as for upcoming products and the availability of it and ease which it could connect and be found by new players. It does not have to be done by someone at Palladium, but the person doing it should be able to easily get interviews with Palladium staffers (especially to talk up product), as well as longtime fans. Quick reviews of what's in the upcoming/most recent Rifter release would fit in here as well as good Top Ten (or twenty, or whatever) lists linking several books/products.

2. Videos/Video Blogs/Product Demos
Walk throughs for making characters, even step by step slideshow style with sound. Suggestions, notes, ect. An ongoing series would be good, but even a couple parter to start with, start with basic 'making a character', then 'selecting skills' then one for psychic powers, then magic, the introducing world books, sourcebooks, gear, ect. Each of these being less than 5 minutes would be an amazing resource for new players, and easily found and watched on smartphones/Ipads. These would help new players, give people a better idea, and should be targeted directly towards them, as well as other ones targeted towards GM's (making NPC's, rolling up a Vampire Gang, Making a Travelling show, ect) and get more eyeballs on the product/company with it's interaction. 'playing Rifts, with Kevin Siembieda' as a series of short videos as above would be a huge step.

3. Interactive Website
Update it. Seriously. There is no reason something should be listed as 'Coming Soon' if it is not. There is NO REASON something should be 'available for pre-order' if it is NOT COMING (I'm looking at you, BTS books and Land of the Damned), it is TERRIBLE business to have this as such.
Featured products would be key. Cycle through some of the library, especially if the featured product/world book tied in with the podcast of the week. Your podcasts could lead up/build around your product occasionally for as long as a month if you don't have anything else to talk about, it would help a lot.

4. Apps and Social Media
Character sheets, interactive anything, whatever, just get it out there. Get more eyeballs on the product. Connect your podcasts with 'coming soon' video sneak peaks on the Facebook page of people working at their desks, a few art pics, all kinds of options here. Week of release, get a video up of a few key people interviewed from the production team about it (the opposite of this is to use the podcasts not talking about new product to talk up/about previous books, their history, inspiration, ect).



These things would be a great way to start. They could be done by Palladium, or they could be done by someone payed for by Palladium (videos and changed websites aren't free, nor is production). Heck, I would learn how to do Podcasts if I could get a good guarantee of support and interviews with people of interest because I would just love if they existed.

Things like THIS are how 'we' get more people to play Rifts without actually ever doing anything to produce products. Marketing, placement, awareness campaigns. Think about it, talk about it, and maybe it could happen.


PS- just typed this up off the top of my head, not very well put together, but I think this conversation needs to go beyond the duality of players running games and the problems faced by Palladium's problems, and try to look at other things that change the game market and interact with fanbases. I am sure I could get a few people who do this kind of thing professionally (resource managers at advertising companies, graphic designers and web designers, ect) to chime in as well if there is interest.

[rbm10101]

IMHO the best way to get more rifts players would be to make making a character easier to do.

Actual quote from a new player"Hey we have spent 3 hours making characters, if making characters is this hard I just don't want to play it".

Put everything in one place. If the OCC list a skill @ +20 have it list the total skill. Example skill is 25+5% a level. The OCC gives the skill at +20. List it next to the skill at 45%+5% level.

Redo the character creation section of the books to streamline it and make character creation easier and faster to do.

Make a FREE to download pdf for character creation only. List everything they need for saves in the character creation section.

I have been playing rifts for years and the number one complaint I get from NEW players is.

" Everything is so confusing. Everything I need to make my character is so spread out. Why don't they just list the total after the bonus for these skills my Character gets? Why aren't the saving throws all in one place? What do you mean it takes me 3 levels to pick up a new " HOBBY" Secondary skill?

[arthurfallz]

I am currently working on a few quick start kits for Rifts. Some very user-friendly, pre-made characters on very simple to follow character sheets. A canned plot (with lots of room for expansion), handouts, etc. Once they're done I'll throw them up on a Google Site and keep the link in my signature.

Because I believe the best way to get people to play Rifts, or any game, is sell the concept, then make sure all barriers to entry are thin. Character? Done. Here's a dozen or more to choose from. Dice? Ready. Colour code them so people can easily pick out the sides by colour (this is darn helpful for kids, as those d8s and d10s can look really similar). A few maps. Handouts, like what a Skelebot looks like. It's how I've got players into dozens of games - do the legwork yourself, then begin handing back responsibility.

This being said, maybe I'm getting old, but it seems like the newer generation of gamers expect everything to be handed to them on a plate. One of my friends refused to read core books for the longest time, until we (as a group) has to put our foot down and say "read it or you don't play."

[earthhawk]

J_Danger, first you have to have people *WILLING* to play Rifts. I carted four boxes of books around in my car to the FLGS for 8 straight weeks to try and get people to play even one game of Rifts instead of Pathfinder which is the local game of choice.

Frankly, the books don't grab people's attention well; they're grayscale for the most part, the art in many places isn't that great depending on your taste and the layouts were obviously done by hand with many passages copied and pasted over. They also aren't marketed well and the system is an anachronism that doesn't make bringing in new players easy. Also, it doesn't help when none of the game stores are willing to stock the books because they just don't sell.

I buy the books for the setting; I've not been able to get anyone to play a game of Rifts or run a game of Rifts in a decade or more.

I agree with this 100%. Also I don't think that Palladium (KS) really puts that much effort into attracting new players to Rifts. The quality of the products they publish is kind of amatureish compared to the rest of the industry. And please don't say they are a small company with no resources... plenty of smaller companies produce better, higher quality material. It's too late for Palladium to attract new players to Rifts. The product they publish looks old, plays old, and doesn't hold up to the newer games that you can find in your local shop.

[Eashamahel]

Yeah, I am not sure it's not the effort to attract new players, they are putting the effort into new products/books, occassional though they may be, they just don't seem to realize that they aren't attracting new players or, more likely, are not able to make adjustments due to other (financial) constraints, and because of that they are playing to their market of 'already fans' by default.

On a note related to earlier posts, I watched someone make a character for another game system on their Ipad yesterday, was pretty eye opening. First on the search list when they looked for that system, interactive character sheet, choose your class, choose your race, fill in your stats, select your skills from this list, fills in all your bonuses and numbers for you, just wow. Here I was thinking Palladium should make an interactive character sheet as an app, which would basically just be a replacement for paper, and that's where the industry actually is.

In all honesty, I listed a bunch of things that could be done, by the company and also by fans to raise interest, but what they would actually do is raise interest among already loyal fans/old customers, and increase the likelihood of old customers to be able to draw in and retain new players themselves. To draw new customers would require new product/new product line/re-launched product lines. Unfortunately, that's actually what is being done, with the R:UE rulebook, and Revised Sourcebook one and the Revised World Book 1: Vampire Kingdoms. Why that's unfortunate is that it has taken years to get that far, and because of that, any potential new market that could have been captured has been lost.

So, overall it's kind of grim, but as long as PB can put out product that their current fans enjoy, they will remain in business. Hopefully this Robotech endeavor allows them some revenue to let that happen, as currently the future of a company which gets kick-starter funding from it's pre-established fan base to make a product that will only sell to that same fanbase is rather bleak.

[Marrowlight]

On a note related to earlier posts, I watched someone make a character for another game system on their Ipad yesterday, was pretty eye opening. First on the search list when they looked for that system, interactive character sheet, choose your class, choose your race, fill in your stats, select your skills from this list, fills in all your bonuses and numbers for you, just wow. Here I was thinking Palladium should make an interactive character sheet as an app, which would basically just be a replacement for paper, and that's where the industry actually is.

To echo...I have often thought over the years that the reason my group (the group in which I'm usually a player, not the GM) has stuck with the game system of the last X years is because of the bad ass character builder that they have (and it's just an excel baby with a lot of work put into it). I've never had to buy a D20 book, and yet I've played in probably a dozen or more games using those rules - because all I needed was the character builder.

And then there's Hero Lab, to boot.

[BuzzardB]

Hello everyone! New guy here, both to the forum and Rifts in general.

I thought I would take a minute to weigh in on me getting into Rifts recently and what i think would help others.

Firstly Rifts has a stigma about its "terrible" mechanics which seems someone must bring up every time there is a discussion about it. I doubt there is much anyone can do to get rid of this and it is certainly something that is making it hard for new people to get into the game. Funny thing is when you get specifics from people about what they dislike, a lot of it seems to be misinformation or an outright wrong interpretation of the rules.

It was a little bit easier for me to get into it as I have a group of brothers in my regular game nights that grew up with rifts and have tons of books which really sparked my interest. I also have 2 FLGS stores that have rifts books in stock or will bring in books requested. Though I luckily found 48 rifts books on craigslist for $100 recently, ultimate book win there. Honestly the books are inexpensive and pretty easily accessible through palladium books and amazon so thats a good thing.

I started with the Ultimate Edition that I got from a Christmas bundle from here and...that is a hard book to read I must say. Its *not* laid out for a new player to get into AT ALL. Since I have recently acquired the old Main Rule book and started reading though that I was actually amazed at how much better it is at introducing you to THE GAME, not the world. Character creation right off the bat then the core mechanic concepts. Its a great thing.

I think Rifts needs a bigger online presence. Especially with freely and easily accessible knowledge and content. One of the biggest features that get people into Pathfinder, which is insanely successful is stuff the like the PRD and SRD. And while I can't expect every company to put all their rules up online for free it would be nice to have an easier way to quickly access answers to rules questions or flip through enticing information to get people excited for the game without having to rely on forums. I think this book should be equal parts Introduction and guide and sales pitch and propaganda for the system and its books.

Oh and some sort of Character/NPC creation software would be awesome as well. I have used a couple I ave found, but they were not very good. I know this would be a huge undertaking considering the amount of books but its something to consider.

The biggest thing though for me to want to get into the game and play it would be a "Rifts Beginner Guide". I think this would be some life changing experience. I think Rifts more than any game ever could benefit from a guide or pamphlet or straight up book that will help new players find information. Things that would be included would be a streamlined and easy to read character creation guide, a description of the book types (dimension, sourcebook, world books ect) with guides on what books are recommended for what kinds of games people would like to run. It could also act as a basic GMG/Index book with page or book references to rules and content throughout the franchise, much like rules compendium on this very forum.

[Eashamahel]

Any support a product gets can only help it, fan support is ideal, company interaction makes it better.

I did have to stumble when thinking about a character builder for Rifts though. Select your race. Select your OCC. We're already at what must be tens of thousands of combinations. And with those, so many exceptions and restrictions and 'Maybe's'. Can a dog boy be a Cyber Knight? Lonestar says Coake accepted 3 (supposedly), what do Dog Boy Cyber Knights get for psychic powers? Can Dog Boys be mages? It says unlikely, but that's not yes or no, who's going to figure this out for every character? And it just gets worse from there.

[Godogma]

I know of three or four character generators that were killed off due to cease and desist orders from P.B. so I'm guessing that before Kevin really made them mad there were people willing to put in the legwork.

EDIT: And they were doing it for free; I'd happily pay 10 or even 20 dollars for one. Maybe more, especially if it did NPCs so I didn't have to blow just as much time on them as you do making PCs.

[say652]

according to my *****, get rid of all the guys and make it porn.

[rbm10101]

In a nut shell.
Keep it simple Stupid.
Do this and more people will play the game and by default BUY the game.


I would LOVE LOVE LOVE a way to make characters via software. Even if it was ONLY the RUE content first, with more content added later. make the RUE character generator FREEWARE and the other books have people pay for it. Call up those guys you sent the cease and desist letter ask them for the software they used and heck if you use it then pay them for it. The vast majority of books published by palladium are fan made so why cant the "OFFICIAL FIRST EVER SOFTWARE CHARACTER GENERATOR" be fan made and published by palladium. E-tools comes to mind...

The vast majority of NEW players use the RUE for there first few characters. I know of GM's that will only allow RUE characters in there campaign and use the other boosk as settings, gear, vehicles etc etc.

[arthurfallz]

On a note related to earlier posts, I watched someone make a character for another game system on their Ipad yesterday, was pretty eye opening. First on the search list when they looked for that system, interactive character sheet, choose your class, choose your race, fill in your stats, select your skills from this list, fills in all your bonuses and numbers for you, just wow. Here I was thinking Palladium should make an interactive character sheet as an app, which would basically just be a replacement for paper, and that's where the industry actually is.

To echo...I have often thought over the years that the reason my group (the group in which I'm usually a player, not the GM) has stuck with the game system of the last X years is because of the bad ass character builder that they have (and it's just an excel baby with a lot of work put into it). I've never had to buy a D20 book, and yet I've played in probably a dozen or more games using those rules - because all I needed was the character builder.

And then there's Hero Lab, to boot.

Emphasis to show how this isn't in a company's best interest. WotC tried to reneg on their d20 OGL for a reason.

[Marrowlight]

Depends on how you define best interest. I was speaking as a player. The GMs have still had to buy plenty of books over the years - character builders don't give you loot or a variety of beasts or locations. meanwhile, they haven't bought a single Palladium book since.

[earthhawk]

On a note related to earlier posts, I watched someone make a character for another game system on their Ipad yesterday, was pretty eye opening. First on the search list when they looked for that system, interactive character sheet, choose your class, choose your race, fill in your stats, select your skills from this list, fills in all your bonuses and numbers for you, just wow. Here I was thinking Palladium should make an interactive character sheet as an app, which would basically just be a replacement for paper, and that's where the industry actually is.

To echo...I have often thought over the years that the reason my group (the group in which I'm usually a player, not the GM) has stuck with the game system of the last X years is because of the bad ass character builder that they have (and it's just an excel baby with a lot of work put into it). I've never had to buy a D20 book, and yet I've played in probably a dozen or more games using those rules - because all I needed was the character builder.

And then there's Hero Lab, to boot.

Emphasis to show how this isn't in a company's best interest. WotC tried to reneg on their d20 OGL for a reason.

I think you have to start somewhere. You can't build a business based solely on the customers shoulders. As it stands now few people play Palladium games, and even fewer are willing to give it them [Palladium] a try. Sometimes you need to take a step back and look at the competition and see why they are successful and you're not. Unfortunately, and this is the saddest part to me, all of this talking and posting means nothing if the guy who owns the company doesn't see a reason/ need to change. And to be honest who am I to him? No one. He's had the company (barely) in business for the past 30 years.

Personally I've already decided that if and when NG1&2 come out those will be the last Palladium books that I purchase. This is coming from a fan who LOVED Rifts in 1990 and still collects the books knowing full-well that I probably will never play another Rifts game again (not for lack of trying mind you). That's 23 years of buying product from ONE company. There isn't any other business that I've that loyal to. But for some reason I don't think KS sees it that way. It seems as if the fans of Rifts get taken advantage of time and time again with little recourse except not buying product, which as fans is the last thing we want to do.

So to get back to the original topic: How do you get more people to play Rifts? I'm not sure, and honestly it's really not my issue. All I can do is purchase books as they come out and look for players to game with.

EH

[Godogma]

I'm with you Earthhawk, Northern Gun 1&2 are probably the last books I'll buy from Palladium myself (if they ever come out) - especially if they're the same quality as Black Market was... I can't get anyone to play with so there's no real point adding even more books to my limited shelfspace.

I also agree with you that the fans pretty much get taken advantage of and unless Kevin modernizes and meets us halfway there's nothing we can do to bring in new players. Unfortunately he's still in the stone ages as far as publishing goes and essentially refuses any and all attempts to change that or his marketing tactics.