Killer Cyborg wrote:That does offer something fairly unique.
Tolkeen just needs to get their hands on a Nazca Line Maker with the top-secret 'create ley line spell', then you can use it at any existing nexus to make it into a triangle.
Alrik Vas wrote:Tolkeen shouldn't have to move. The CS was being a bully.
Tolkeen was building up a bunch of war machines, do you expect the CS to just wait and get attacked like last time? Tolkeen was following in the footsteps of the Great City so this time they got pre-empted. It's not bullying, it's self defense. Tolkeen waved off any chance to negotiate with the CS and started engaging with their military whenever encountered in Minnesota. They initiated these hostilities, and used a diplomat's death as an excuse. Guy probably tripped and cracked his head falling out of a hover car, and Creed's faction couldn't have been happier since they finally got the excuse they were gunning for.
eliakon wrote:The argument I am seeing here is that some how choosing to defend themselves from an aggressor makes them the bad guy some how.....
I'm going to posit that the CS are not the aggressors. Tolkeen aggressed first by attacking the CS military, and through the reckless anarchy they permit to exist in their land.
49 PA: Tolkeen suspected of supporting terrorist sect setting up in Old Chicago
70 PA: Tolkeen threatens "retaliation" when the CS obliterates 6 towns in Minnesota while the CS is routing out the assassins of their Chairman. Apparently Minnesota is "their territory". The assassins of Joseph Prosek are found to have ties with Tolkeen, and since Tolkeen is taking credit for Minnesota, they are taking responsibility for the actions of terrorists operating there whom they failed to regulate.
71 PA: Karl is elected and reasonably establishes outposts within old Minnesota to protect the Coalition States. Tolkeen decides to stop talking with the CS and opts to meet ANY military personnel of the Coalition in their territory with lethal force.
88 PA: A faction that wishes to militarize Tolkeen and become aggressive with the CS wings the kingship for Creed. He says teaching the CS fear is only the beginning. They begin recruiting practitioners of magic "of all kinds" (witches? necromancers? soul harvesters?). Rather than allow free market, Creed ORDERS industry to make military items. Convinces his populace to "welcome war".
100 PA: Creed is cruel, hard, merciless, unforgiving. He's assembling cronies from other dimensions. Rumors of consorting with Neuron Beasts and Brodkil.
101 PA: The CS learns of the magical machines and weapons of war that Tolkeen's been building, possibly for 13 years now.
103 PA: Skeleton Raiders raid locations in 'Tolkeen territory' in Minnesota. The 'siege' effectively begins.
104 PA: Chalk's unauthorized missile strike.
105 PA: Tolkeen sucks up a bunch of Juicer Uprising survivors, 'hungry for revenge' folks, never mind that the CS was offering something they thought would extend Juicer lifespans and that they were all duped by aliens, let's blame the humans.
106 PA: CS officially begins the siege, preventing exit/enter of Minnesota borders. Monstrosities summoned from other dimensions by Tolkeenites.
Seems to me like Tolkeen is at fault for:
1) not accepting any of the terms offered to the Great City when the CS was negotiating with them, back when Tolkeen was part of GC's FoM
2) not policing their lands properly
3) threatening the CS when they come to do this policing in their stead
4) refusing to talk with the CS
5) attacking their military units no matter what
6) adopting pro-terrorism ("teach fear") and pro-war sentiments
7) wrecklessly allowing even the worse kind of mages to be recruited to them
making deals with interdimensional supernatural creatures of evil
This all progressed over time, but it was layered on top of errors they were progressively at fault for.
Blue_Lion wrote:Did the RMB not mention sending troops beyond there borders in patrols? And here I thought that was how most hostile encounters started.
RMBp139 has Erin Tarn write #10 "Minnesota, a place under siege!", but I do not know how much stock we should put in that woman's words. Especially since this is unauthorized so we don't even know if she stands behind what she allegedly wrote here.
Even she admits that there are 'Minnesota human neighbours', bitter while northern D-Bee towns prosper, perhaps at the expense of their southern human neighbours. Who knows if they are damming up rivers or other stuff?
What is confusing is that there is an "Editor's Note" but I am not sure if that is supposed to mean Alex or Thom or if it was the editor who compiled Tarn's letters into a book without unauthorization.
It mentions August 101 PA that troops have been dispatched "to Minnesota". Which seems fine to me. There are human towns there who are bitter and probably would welcome the CS.
It's one thing for the Kingdom of Tolkeen to claim Minneapolis, but all of the surrounding regions as well? Who gave them that kind of authority over these human towns? Maybe they don't want to be ruled over by dragons and mages?
Tarn says that Psi-Stalkers and Dog Packs 'progress ever northward' and they do recon and S+D missions. So what? Minnesota has Xiticix problems, maybe they were just dealing with that to protect the human towns because the City of Tolkeen wasn't protecting the people in the territories they claimed to hold authority over.
Tarn even says that Xiticix scouting parties were reported in Minesota. She even posits "Perhaps the CS has decided to eliminate the potential alien threat".
So if anything, even though Tolkeen threatened the CS, even though they confront the CS with lethal force and refuse to speak with them, the CS troops bravely venture forth into hostile territories to battle an alien menace and save the innocent humans of Minnesota from these bugs. They're basically helping Tolkeen but Tolkeen still assaults them in the midst of it!
Blue_Lion wrote:Think it was SOT 1 that mention that some towns where pro CS if I recall right it was mentioned around the adventure in a town with a vampire.
Yup, the Hamlet of Vosberg, page 122-126.
All the more reason for the CS to establish outposts and a presence, to protect these southern towns.
You think vampires could set up that easily in an area under CS control? This is an example of what horrible care that Tolkeen is taking of Minnesota. The CS had to step in, to protect innocent humans from vampires.
Blue_Lion wrote:There is more to the logistics of refugees than just food and water. A large population without a job leads to higher crime rate
They can all have jobs building new houses with magically-created wood and tilling new fields.
Blue_Lion wrote:there is the matter of transport and protection.
Circle of Travel is adequate transport to get there, odds are you can transport over horses with that spell if you need them.
Blue_Lion wrote:There is a mater of space for them to live, sanitation and medical needs.
Magic makes this all seem pretty easy. MDC Ironwood would be very easy to build with, able to support more weight and stuff. There's a cleanliness spell and you can have earth and water elementals route rivers to wash gunk away and Create Water to supplement that. Lots of healing spells too.
Blue_Lion wrote:Many refugees do not have high demand skills as more people compete for the same number of paying jobs pay drops and demand for products goes up so does cost. Then as local workers loose jobs to refugees this breads resentment. (such as the Mexicans faced.)
Tolkeenites can create their own jobs, and set up in new locations to avoid competing too much with their neighbours. Setting up in competetive places like Lazlo would only be temporary, and growing places like New Lazlo or Magestar would welcome the influx.
Blue_Lion wrote:The potential to live without food is there with magic but I do not know of any by the books kingdoms that rely on it.
You only have to do it long enough to set up your farms.
Blue_Lion wrote:Claiming lands in Rifts has many risks as does holding them.
The CS has had to deal with these risks claiming and holding their lands and the proximity of a nation like Tolkeen far too liberal with their magic and who do not adequately police their lands hasn't helped.
Blue_Lion wrote:The reason I said that the CS would fallow the Tolkeen refuges if they had no fight to take the land was the CS had a personal grudge with Tolkeen.
What grudge are you talking about?
They were invaded because they were militarizing against the CS, the grudge was formed in the course of the war. If they' spent effort getting out instead of building to attack, there wouldn't be a grudge.
Blue_Lion wrote:As the suffered no loss of troops and combat power they would be inclined to pursue and kill there foes. So Lazlo would not likely have years but maybe months at most before they felt the CS boots in Tolkeens place.
Lazlo's helping kill Xiticix, Tolkeen's getting in the way and I haven't heard of them helping. Tolkeen's an ex-member of the FoM and suspected in Old Chicago terrorism, far as I know Lazlo wasn't part of the FoM and not a suspect. So I think they have more room for leeway.
If the CS focused on anything but the Xiticix I think it would be the Pecos Empire and Federation of Magic (demon-ridden Brass/Dweomer/Kingsdale/Soulharvest/Stormspire) not Lazlo.
Lazlo has plenty of time to clean up their act, stop summoning supernatural beings, get rid of their more dangerous forms of magic, make a show of good gesture, police their area, do what Great City / Tolkeen did not do, and engage in some actual diplomacy.
The CS is willing to deal with Columbia even though they have D-Bees (dwarves) and mages (Techno-Wizards). The Vanguard exist as a remnant of CS acceptance of magic (techno-wizards, LLWs, mystics, conjurers). The CS is friendly with NGR even though they don't ban magic and allow D-Bees citizenship.
It's really not impossible. Karl's going to die or get soft in his old age, Joseph is more liberal and could off the old man if he becomes a problem. Lazlo has hope.
Alrik Vas wrote:I believe they do follow the refugees, actually. The ones going west are hunted in Aftermath. The Juice and Cyberknight bros escort them.
At this late in the game, there is good reason to suspect these supposed refugees are merely disguised regrouping guerilla fighters. The CS has dealt with supposedly innocent people lying in wait in towns to ambush them before.
The majority of innocents would've already left, those that were casualties of Tolkeen-bred ignorance of the danger are the fault of Creed, not the CS.
Shark_Force wrote:the CS was threatening to brutally murder them for something like 15 years (which would set that as a bare minimum for the date of founding... though honestly, probably earlier because if they got a death threat on day 1, they would presumably have moved on day 2).
No idea what you're talking about here. Tolkeen has existed since before FoM invaded Chi-Town. They were part of it, though they left because they thought it was unwise to provoke the CS (they were right). As thanks, they were excepted from Joseph's genocide, he kept it to the Magic Zone and didn't extend it northward. Tolkeen should be grateful, they could've done more to oppose their former allies and aid the CS in defense.
Shark_Force wrote:if you have a thousand adult dragons, i don't think even 60,000 xiticix are that big of a threat
SoT6p136 mentions Freehold as having at best 144 adults and 332 hatchlings. It's impressive but I think even a thousand warriors equipped with TK rifles could cause serious problems for them.
flatline wrote:Are there any Rifts OCCs that can create astral realms/kingdoms/whatever?
If not, why do you think that the ability to create private sub-dimensions would have been available to Tolkeen?
Rifts is not limited to OCCs that originate here, look at all the Diabolists/Summoners littering Kingsdale.
Even if Tolkeen doesn't have someone of the required class, they could simply outsource the job. I'm sure a Millek could be convinced to do it.
World Book 10 added the Technical Skill of Lore: Psychic which includes myths and legends about the Astral Plane and Dreamstream and something called "The Enclave" which I'm drawing a blank on. There should be enough sensitives with Astral Projection (or mages with the spell) to do the required networking.
Summoners (surely Tolkeen must have a few when you look at how many are in Kingsdale) can also use the 'Summon Spirits' circle to bring "beings, monsters and travelers from the astral plane" not to mention beings from the Dreamstream. Even if you don't get a Millek right away, it's hard to believe they didn't run into some eventually.
eliakon wrote:Are you going to open a dimensional portal and make it permanent with a diabolist ward? (so now the CS has a path to your new world too....)
Although the permanence ward makes the entire phrase indestructible, I don't think it does the same to whatever surface you affix it to, so if you destroy the surface that would un-anchor the ward from the proximity of the spell, which should allow you to end it. Maybe plant a fusion block inside a crate, do the ward on the crate to tether the D-portal, explode the fusion block when you're done.