Anti-Robot Solutions

[dragonfett]

If the goal was to reduce book keeping, then all power armors and robot vehicles would have one hit location.

That's why unless there is a specific reason (aka called shot or say you stick your robots hand in lava) you take damage to your robots main body and ignore the rest. That said I do believe there are to hit locations for robots in the CB1if that's more your style

That's kind of my point. Why have all of these hit locations and then ignore them in favor of book keeping? Mines should be the one thing that can not hit main body on power armor and robot vehicles due to their purpose and how they are used.

[Nightmartree]

If the goal was to reduce book keeping, then all power armors and robot vehicles would have one hit location.

That's why unless there is a specific reason (aka called shot or say you stick your robots hand in lava) you take damage to your robots main body and ignore the rest. That said I do believe there are to hit locations for robots in the CB1if that's more your style

That's kind of my point. Why have all of these hit locations and then ignore them in favor of book keeping? Mines should be the one thing that can not hit main body on power armor and robot vehicles due to their purpose and how they are used.

I agree on the mine part, and the reason to avoid all those hit locations is so your not rolling extra dice every combat just in case you shot him in the knee, the elbow, the sensor array or the left toe. And then having to track that you've shot SAMAS 1 in the legs, left arm and left wing, SAMAS 2 in the right wing, SAMAS 4 in both legs, both arms, the head, the torso the engines and all of it for different amounts of damage...

now if its 1v1 sure if you want to, but its already hard enough in a big fight for me to keep track of everyone and what they do without having 6 MDC pools that any particular attack may take off of a unit and only 1 of them lethal. But you still need them in case someone asks "how much do I have to do to take out his engines (or leg, or gun arm)"

Also I would say that any damage over whats needed to remove the leg hits main body, just seems appropriate for a mine

[dragonfett]

If the goal was to reduce book keeping, then all power armors and robot vehicles would have one hit location.

That's why unless there is a specific reason (aka called shot or say you stick your robots hand in lava) you take damage to your robots main body and ignore the rest. That said I do believe there are to hit locations for robots in the CB1if that's more your style

That's kind of my point. Why have all of these hit locations and then ignore them in favor of book keeping? Mines should be the one thing that can not hit main body on power armor and robot vehicles due to their purpose and how they are used.

I agree on the mine part, and the reason to avoid all those hit locations is so your not rolling extra dice every combat just in case you shot him in the knee, the elbow, the sensor array or the left toe. And then having to track that you've shot SAMAS 1 in the legs, left arm and left wing, SAMAS 2 in the right wing, SAMAS 4 in both legs, both arms, the head, the torso the engines and all of it for different amounts of damage...

now if its 1v1 sure if you want to, but its already hard enough in a big fight for me to keep track of everyone and what they do without having 6 MDC pools that any particular attack may take off of a unit and only 1 of them lethal. But you still need them in case someone asks "how much do I have to do to take out his engines (or leg, or gun arm)"

Also I would say that any damage over whats needed to remove the leg hits main body, just seems appropriate for a mine

As a fellow GM, I totally sympathize on that, but if I as a player take the time to lay mines in a trap and then the GM says that it all goes to main body, I would be very upset.

[Nightmartree]

As a fellow GM, I totally sympathize on that, but if I as a player take the time to lay mines in a trap and then the GM says that it all goes to main body, I would be very upset.

Agreed

That said there are some circumstance i'd skip the leg MDC, but most of those situations are all common sense (you fell on it face first) or because the mine is designed to do them (bounder mines)

[Blue_Lion]

Can you cite the book so I can look it over myself? The way you phrase it sounds more like an optional rule to use against the player's so as to not instantly cripple them, and only applies to NPC's because it applies to PC's just for consistency.

It wasn't in the book I thought it was but I did find the power armor on page 42-43 of WB 5 which definetly indicates that explosive location can play a major part in what goes boom, though notably these are precision and placed explosives specifically for crippling or breaching the hull of robots.

Edit: Its in neither of the places I thought it would be, i'm 90% sure I've read it, just can't find it. I could be wrong though, the problem is if i'm right it was one of those one lines, noted on a piece of equipment somewhere that said it does THIS because its this thing. But none of the similar items have that same line.

I will say it makes sense to me to damage the legs not the body, a mine hits whats on top of it (most of the time) and thats not your torso. of course this increases book keeping and is a game, so unless it comes up most people probably won't care or notice. Just treat it like a grenade they place.

The only place I know of saying a mine can destroy wheels is the flavor text of a rolling thunder apc Juicer uprising. It does not say they are immune to the need to make a called shot to hit other than the main body or list any mechanics of how it deals damage to the wheels. Giving that the mine is primary a remote detonated mine in the vehicle and is intended to be used against moving vehicles. Striking with the mine like this would require timing, so could reasonably require a strike roll. Miss the roll and you either blow the mine before or after the vehicle is in range a called shot could then be used to hit other than the main body. (There is no statement that I know of that says mines do not need to make a called shot to hit other than the main body.)
In Triax there is a special missile that can target other than the main body but this an acceptation to the normal rule on missiles.

NG mines are triggered by proximity (x') or remote detonation, they are not contact mines. So the blast of a NG mine would be very much like a grenade hitting the main body. Basically normally the leg or wheel will not be in contact with the mine unless you find a way to detonate it when they are, something that would be hard to do with an left behind proximity detonated mine.

[Blue_Lion]

If the goal was to reduce book keeping, then all power armors and robot vehicles would have one hit location.

That's why unless there is a specific reason (aka called shot or say you stick your robots hand in lava) you take damage to your robots main body and ignore the rest. That said I do believe there are to hit locations for robots in the CB1if that's more your style

That's kind of my point. Why have all of these hit locations and then ignore them in favor of book keeping? Mines should be the one thing that can not hit main body on power armor and robot vehicles due to their purpose and how they are used.

I agree on the mine part, and the reason to avoid all those hit locations is so your not rolling extra dice every combat just in case you shot him in the knee, the elbow, the sensor array or the left toe. And then having to track that you've shot SAMAS 1 in the legs, left arm and left wing, SAMAS 2 in the right wing, SAMAS 4 in both legs, both arms, the head, the torso the engines and all of it for different amounts of damage...

now if its 1v1 sure if you want to, but its already hard enough in a big fight for me to keep track of everyone and what they do without having 6 MDC pools that any particular attack may take off of a unit and only 1 of them lethal. But you still need them in case someone asks "how much do I have to do to take out his engines (or leg, or gun arm)"

Also I would say that any damage over whats needed to remove the leg hits main body, just seems appropriate for a mine

How are the mines in questioned detonated?
NG AV mines detonate when a target comes within X feet, (X changes based on size of the mine.) or when remote detonated. If the robot or PA is 20 feet away why is it damaging the feet/leg and not the main body?

[Nightmartree]

The only place I know of saying a mine can destroy wheels is the flavor text of a rolling thunder apc Juicer uprising. It does not say they are immune to the need to make a called shot to hit other than the main body or list any mechanics of how it deals damage to the wheels. Giving that the mine is primary a remote detonated mine in the vehicle and is intended to be used against moving vehicles. Striking with the mine like this would require timing, so could reasonably require a strike roll. Miss the roll and you either blow the mine before or after the vehicle is in range a called shot could then be used to hit other than the main body. (There is no statement that I know of that says mines do not need to make a called shot to hit other than the main body.)
In Triax there is a special missile that can target other than the main body but this an acceptation to the normal rule on missiles.

NG mines are triggered by proximity (x') or remote detonation, they are not contact mines. So the blast of a NG mine would be very much like a grenade hitting the main body. Basically normally the leg or wheel will not be in contact with the mine unless you find a way to detonate it when they are, something that would be hard to do with an left behind proximity detonated mine.

So you write all this basically saying "mines don't hit specific locations except for a specific called shot situation"

How are the mines in questioned detonated?
NG AV mines detonate when a target comes within X feet, (X changes based on size of the mine.) or when remote detonated. If the robot or PA is 20 feet away why is it damaging the feet/leg and not the main body?

and then put this which basically says that the way the mine detonates determines what it hits with the example being that mines that explode when you aren't standing on them should hit main body...

i'm not sure exactly what your arguing besides maybe noting that some mines are proximity not pressure trigger and those would hit main body not legs? which is a similar situation to what i noted with bounder mines though a different trigger mechanism both would hit main body not legs.

[Blue_Lion]

The only place I know of saying a mine can destroy wheels is the flavor text of a rolling thunder apc Juicer uprising. It does not say they are immune to the need to make a called shot to hit other than the main body or list any mechanics of how it deals damage to the wheels. Giving that the mine is primary a remote detonated mine in the vehicle and is intended to be used against moving vehicles. Striking with the mine like this would require timing, so could reasonably require a strike roll. Miss the roll and you either blow the mine before or after the vehicle is in range a called shot could then be used to hit other than the main body. (There is no statement that I know of that says mines do not need to make a called shot to hit other than the main body.)
In Triax there is a special missile that can target other than the main body but this an acceptation to the normal rule on missiles.

NG mines are triggered by proximity (x') or remote detonation, they are not contact mines. So the blast of a NG mine would be very much like a grenade hitting the main body. Basically normally the leg or wheel will not be in contact with the mine unless you find a way to detonate it when they are, something that would be hard to do with an left behind proximity detonated mine.

So you write all this basically saying "mines don't hit specific locations except for a specific called shot situation"

How are the mines in questioned detonated?
NG AV mines detonate when a target comes within X feet, (X changes based on size of the mine.) or when remote detonated. If the robot or PA is 20 feet away why is it damaging the feet/leg and not the main body?

and then put this which basically says that the way the mine detonates determines what it hits with the example being that mines that explode when you aren't standing on them should hit main body...

i'm not sure exactly what your arguing besides maybe noting that some mines are proximity not pressure trigger and those would hit main body not legs? which is a similar situation to what i noted with bounder mines though a different trigger mechanism both would hit main body not legs.

I was pointing out that a mine is not exempt to the need for a called shot, hit other than the main body. A command detonated mine can be with GM progative used with a called shot.

The second part I am pointing out how absurd the assumption they should be hitting the leg is. To my knowledge all mines standard rifts are proximity with NG having command/proximity mines. It is not setting a case to make mines immune to the needs a called shot. But pointing out why assuming they should it the legs with mines is flawed as rifts mines are stated as proximity when target comes within X'.

[Nightmartree]

I was pointing out that a mine is not exempt to the need for a called shot, hit other than the main body. A command detonated mine can be with GM progative used with a called shot.

The second part I am pointing out how absurd the assumption they should be hitting the leg is. To my knowledge all mines standard rifts are proximity with NG having command/proximity mines. It is not setting a case to make mines immune to the needs a called shot. But pointing out why assuming they should it the legs with mines is flawed as rifts mines are stated as proximity when target comes within X'.

So...your using a remote detonated attack which has a chance of missing (detonated at the wrong time) as an equivalent to...effect? resulting from an action...i'm having a hard time using appropriate vocabulary (as it sounds really dumb every way I put it together so i'm skipping to examples below)

basically your comparing someone having to hit a button at the right time to sticking your hand in a fire. Then your saying that a mine detonating under someones leg (the default assumed mine for this entire conversation) dealing damage to the leg and not the main body is absurd because A) mines need to make a called shot to hit legs (impossible because they aren't aimed) and B) mines in rifts are proximity so a mine exploding under your leg hits main body...

Your logic applied to our discussion is flawed

[Blue_Lion]

I was pointing out that a mine is not exempt to the need for a called shot, hit other than the main body. A command detonated mine can be with GM progative used with a called shot.

The second part I am pointing out how absurd the assumption they should be hitting the leg is. To my knowledge all mines standard rifts are proximity with NG having command/proximity mines. It is not setting a case to make mines immune to the needs a called shot. But pointing out why assuming they should it the legs with mines is flawed as rifts mines are stated as proximity when target comes within X'.

So...your using a remote detonated attack which has a chance of missing (detonated at the wrong time) as an equivalent to...effect? resulting from an action...i'm having a hard time using appropriate vocabulary (as it sounds really dumb every way I put it together so i'm skipping to examples below)

basically your comparing someone having to hit a button at the right time to sticking your hand in a fire. Then your saying that a mine detonating under someones leg (the default assumed mine for this entire conversation) dealing damage to the leg and not the main body is absurd because A) mines need to make a called shot to hit legs (impossible because they aren't aimed) and B) mines in rifts are proximity so a mine exploding under your leg hits main body...

Your logic applied to our discussion is flawed

Your inability to fallow the8 logic is not a flaw in the logic logic but a lack of understanding.

What I said is most mines are by default proximity mines that means it damages when target is in range no roll to strike, so no damage to anything but main body.

Command detonation requires timing/skill to pull off. That does equate to a roll to strike (it is different from a normal strike that moves to the target, but would still reasonably require a strike to blow up when the target is in range) so it would then under GM prerogative allow for a called shot meeting the requirements to hit the legs. (If you research you will find that in real life command detonated bombs/IED use aim points to help them hit the moving target, and they can and do miss.) Basically a normal attack you move what you are aiming to the target a command mine the target moves to what you are aiming but both have a chance to miss and thus need a roll to succeed, or a roll to strike.

And no it is not like comparing it to some one sticking there hand in the fire.

IN simple terms the logic is-
A Most mines are proximity detonation and can not hit the legs.
B When it applies Command detonated mines would logically require a attack roll to strike a moving target, thus opening the option under GM desecration for a called shot to hit the legs/tires.

The logic is not flawed, it is based on an understanding of what is happening. (Command detonated is when a person/charter is direct control of the mine, and they make a roll to strike with the mine when the target is in position.)

[Nightmartree]

Your inabilty to fallow logic is not a flaw logic.

What I said is most mines are by default proximity mines that means it damages when target is in range no roll to strike, so no damage to anything but main body.

Command detonation requires timing/skill to pull off. That does equate to a roll to strike (it is different from a normal strike that moves to the target, but would still reasonably require a strike to blow up when the target is in range) so it would then under GM prerogative allow for a called shot meeting the requirements to hit the legs. (If you research you will find that in real life command detonated bombs/IED use aim points to help them hit the moving target, and they can and do miss.) Basically a normal attack you move what you are aiming to the target a command mine the target moves to what you are aiming but both have a chance to miss and thus need a roll to succeed, or a roll to strike.

And no it is not like comparing it to some one sticking there hand in the fire. That is failure of you to understand what I am saying, so the flaw is in how you understand it not in the logic.

IN simple terms the logic is-
A Most mines are proximity detonation and can not hit the legs.
B When it applies Command detonated mines would logically require a attack roll to strike a moving target, thus opening the option under GM desecration for a called shot to hit the legs/tires.

The logic is not flawed, it is based on an understanding of what is happening.

In simple terms your arguing things that no one had an issue with, i'm following your logic and it is based on the false premise that the mines we were discussing were proximity mines. You seem to be unable to follow context, we were discussing mine that you STEP ON and detonate when your ON TOP OF THEM...this may not be the standard mine in rifts but it is the one we all commonly think of and the one we were assuming when discussing if you'd have your leg blown off or take main body damage. In fact I had stated that a mine that doesn't detonate under your feet (such as bounder mines, specifically the bouncing betties from one of the WWs) would probably deal main body damage. And it is exactly sticking your hand in the fire considering the original premise of the conversation which you have failed to follow was a pressure triggered mine exploding, in other words your literally touching the thing that went boom with a part of your body.

Your argument isn't flawed because you have bad facts, it's flawed because your not following the context of our discussion and trying to be superior when your argument is meaningless. Your argument when applied to what we were discussing is literally saying that a person standing on a mine that explodes isn't hit in the leg because the mine is proximity.

I'm probably being overly harsh, sorry, this appears to all be because we are each using a different style of mine in our dedcutions correct?

[Blue_Lion]

Your inabilty to fallow logic is not a flaw logic.

What I said is most mines are by default proximity mines that means it damages when target is in range no roll to strike, so no damage to anything but main body.

Command detonation requires timing/skill to pull off. That does equate to a roll to strike (it is different from a normal strike that moves to the target, but would still reasonably require a strike to blow up when the target is in range) so it would then under GM prerogative allow for a called shot meeting the requirements to hit the legs. (If you research you will find that in real life command detonated bombs/IED use aim points to help them hit the moving target, and they can and do miss.) Basically a normal attack you move what you are aiming to the target a command mine the target moves to what you are aiming but both have a chance to miss and thus need a roll to succeed, or a roll to strike.

And no it is not like comparing it to some one sticking there hand in the fire. That is failure of you to understand what I am saying, so the flaw is in how you understand it not in the logic.

IN simple terms the logic is-
A Most mines are proximity detonation and can not hit the legs.
B When it applies Command detonated mines would logically require a attack roll to strike a moving target, thus opening the option under GM desecration for a called shot to hit the legs/tires.

The logic is not flawed, it is based on an understanding of what is happening.

In simple terms your arguing things that no one had an issue with, i'm following your logic and it is based on the false premise that the mines we were discussing were proximity mines. You seem to be unable to follow context, we were discussing mine that you STEP ON and detonate when your ON TOP OF THEM...this may not be the standard mine in rifts but it is the one we all commonly think of and the one we were assuming when discussing if you'd have your leg blown off or take main body damage. In fact I had stated that a mine that doesn't detonate under your feet (such as bounder mines, specifically the bouncing betties from one of the WWs) would probably deal main body damage. And it is exactly sticking your hand in the fire considering the original premise of the conversation which you have failed to follow was a pressure triggered mine exploding, in other words your literally touching the thing that went boom with a part of your body.

Your argument isn't flawed because you have bad facts, it's flawed because your not following the context of our discussion and trying to be superior when your argument is meaningless. Your argument when applied to what we were discussing is literally saying that a person standing on a mine that explodes isn't hit in the leg because the mine is proximity.

I'm probably being overly harsh, sorry, this appears to all be because we are each using a different style of mine in our dedcutions correct?

I am talking about common rifts mines. I do not know of any stock rifts mines that are contact detonated. (I even stated what I was talking about in the very beginning that damage to the legs is not inline with the rules of rifts with out a called shot.) I was very clear on what I was stating the flaw is not mine but yours.

Yes we are using different mines; I am using the common mines such as NG AV mines and you are using one that I do not know the source. All the stock mines I have seen are stated as when target is in X range. That I have also been clear about you then claim my logic is flawed when there is no flaw in it. You where talking past me without understanding what I said(or even the stated why) then claiming the flaw was mine.

(While stating that by default blowing up the legs is not inline with the rules, I gave a way for you to get the intended results. -Rather than just saying you can't I gave you away to get your desired result using the rules.)

(Contact mines often require channeling drive the target into the mines to be successful giving that a running robot cold easily have a stride longer than 30' they may have a low success rate even with channeling. That could be why they went with the more effective proximity mine default, so you do not need to calculate if the robot stepped on it.)

[ShadowLogan]

How about giant lawn rakes, the 'bot/pa steps on them and you get smacked in the head (always important to lay a rake down so you can't step on it and get smacked".

Or an indestructible Toll Stop.

Bridges with a weight limit (might not work with some of the lighter units, but...)

How about a TW device that makes anyone/thing in a certain radius play Red-Light/Green-Light.

A bit of Ludicrous Magic, Pie to the Face (or sensor/head area).

[Nightmartree]

I am talking about common rifts mines. I do not know of any stock rifts mines that are contact detonated. (I even stated what I was talking about in the very beginning that damage to the legs is not inline with the rules of rifts with out a called shot.) I was very clear on what I was stating the flaw is not mine but yours.

Yes we are using different mines; I am using the common mines such as NG AV mines and you are using one that I do not know the source. All the stock mines I have seen are stated as when target is in X range. That I have also been clear about you then claim my logic is flawed when there is no flaw in it. You where talking past me without understanding what I said(or even the stated why) then claiming the flaw was mine.

(While stating that by default blowing up the legs is not inline with the rules, I gave a way for you to get the intended results. -Rather than just saying you can't I gave you away to get your desired result using the rules.)

(Contact mines often require channeling drive the target into the mines to be successful giving that a running robot cold easily have a stride longer than 30' they may have a low success rate even with channeling. That could be why they went with the more effective proximity mine default, so you do not need to calculate if the robot stepped on it.)

what I don't understand is how you think that changing the assumed mine and then telling us we are wrong because THAT kind of mine operates in a specific manner is sound logic? When it was clear that we were discussing a mine exploding beneath someone you proceed to go off on a tangent and then declare the main line of discussion flawed because of an alteration in the basic premise. With no attempt to mesh the two arguements resulting in your statement being not only unclear but somewhat absurd when it is applied to our discussion, and then saying we are absurd for our point of view...you have sound facts but what your saying quite frankly with how you are saying it has no impact on our discussion and is only causing problems that shouldn't exist.

If we are using two different mines, that clearly operate in different manners, then your mine operating in one way, has no bearing on ours operating in another and should have been stated as a separate matter or as an addition to the discussion, not a way for you to say we are wrong and this is how all mines work.

[Khanibal]

How about posting a bunch of "Giant Robot Free Zone" signs?

Also, about all you people whine-@$$ing about hit locations, I hereby sentence you to play one session of Battletech(tm, etc.) old style per week, until you learn better.

[eliakon]

How about posting a bunch of "Giant Robot Free Zone" signs?

Also, about all you people whine-@$$ing about hit locations, I hereby sentence you to play one session of Battletech(tm, etc.) old style per week, until you learn better.

Can I pre-emptily repent now and avoid the penalty?
Please?
*throws self on ground begging for mercy*

[Khanibal]

Can I pre-emptily repent now and avoid the penalty?
Please?
*throws self on ground begging for mercy*

"Okay, your 2 LRM20 racks hit with a total of 26 missiles striking your target. Roll hit location for the first 5 missiles."

Nothing like playing a lot of BattleTech to make Hero System combat seem quick.

[Blue_Lion]

I am talking about common rifts mines. I do not know of any stock rifts mines that are contact detonated. (I even stated what I was talking about in the very beginning that damage to the legs is not inline with the rules of rifts with out a called shot.) I was very clear on what I was stating the flaw is not mine but yours.

Yes we are using different mines; I am using the common mines such as NG AV mines and you are using one that I do not know the source. All the stock mines I have seen are stated as when target is in X range. That I have also been clear about you then claim my logic is flawed when there is no flaw in it. You where talking past me without understanding what I said(or even the stated why) then claiming the flaw was mine.

(While stating that by default blowing up the legs is not inline with the rules, I gave a way for you to get the intended results. -Rather than just saying you can't I gave you away to get your desired result using the rules.)

(Contact mines often require channeling drive the target into the mines to be successful giving that a running robot cold easily have a stride longer than 30' they may have a low success rate even with channeling. That could be why they went with the more effective proximity mine default, so you do not need to calculate if the robot stepped on it.)

what I don't understand is how you think that changing the assumed mine and then telling us we are wrong because THAT kind of mine operates in a specific manner is sound logic? When it was clear that we were discussing a mine exploding beneath someone you proceed to go off on a tangent and then declare the main line of discussion flawed because of an alteration in the basic premise. With no attempt to mesh the two arguements resulting in your statement being not only unclear but somewhat absurd when it is applied to our discussion, and then saying we are absurd for our point of view...you have sound facts but what your saying quite frankly with how you are saying it has no impact on our discussion and is only causing problems that shouldn't exist.

If we are using two different mines, that clearly operate in different manners, then your mine operating in one way, has no bearing on ours operating in another and should have been stated as a separate matter or as an addition to the discussion, not a way for you to say we are wrong and this is how all mines work.

What stock rifts mine works they way you assumed it does?
As I have repeatedly said I do not know of any stock rifts contact mines(so to my knowledge no mine works that way in rifts), there is a contact trap that can be constructed with a nurni bullet but it is rare and not a stock mine. The most common mine in NA would seam to be the NG mine. The mine I directly covered.

You are discussing how you think it should work I am discussing rules. Then you imply I am wrong for discussing how common mines work in rifts instead of how you assumed mines worked.

[Nightmartree]

What stock rifts mine works they way you assumed it does?

You are discussing how you think it should work I am discussing rules. Then you imply I am wrong for discussing how common mines work in rifts instead of how you assumed mines worked.

i'm not implying your wrong, I straight up am saying you are wrong for saying we are wrong. You didn't bring up that mines in rifts don't work X way normally at the start of this. You directly jumped into a discussion based on one premise and said that premise doesn't work that way because mines hit main body. Your logic made no sense the way you applied it, and it wasn't until later that you explained what you were basing your argument on, but your argument STILL didn't prove us wrong because we were discussing something different from what you argued.

I'd tried to be a nice guy and back out by pointing out that we were discussing different things and that the effects would be different between those two things and nobody was really wrong, but you insist on trying to win an argument that has no basis. Are there any mines in rifts that are not proximity based? I don't know or care because if I built one it would be pressure trigger and that was what we were discussing before you decided to declare us wrong because proximity mines hit main body, despite it being said that even before you jumped in with your unilateral declaration of superiority that different types of mines from those we were discussing likely would hit main body not legs.

Thank you and have a good day.

[eliakon]

I am talking about common rifts mines. I do not know of any stock rifts mines that are contact detonated. (I even stated what I was talking about in the very beginning that damage to the legs is not inline with the rules of rifts with out a called shot.) I was very clear on what I was stating the flaw is not mine but yours.

Yes we are using different mines; I am using the common mines such as NG AV mines and you are using one that I do not know the source. All the stock mines I have seen are stated as when target is in X range. That I have also been clear about you then claim my logic is flawed when there is no flaw in it. You where talking past me without understanding what I said(or even the stated why) then claiming the flaw was mine.

(While stating that by default blowing up the legs is not inline with the rules, I gave a way for you to get the intended results. -Rather than just saying you can't I gave you away to get your desired result using the rules.)

(Contact mines often require channeling drive the target into the mines to be successful giving that a running robot cold easily have a stride longer than 30' they may have a low success rate even with channeling. That could be why they went with the more effective proximity mine default, so you do not need to calculate if the robot stepped on it.)

what I don't understand is how you think that changing the assumed mine and then telling us we are wrong because THAT kind of mine operates in a specific manner is sound logic? When it was clear that we were discussing a mine exploding beneath someone you proceed to go off on a tangent and then declare the main line of discussion flawed because of an alteration in the basic premise. With no attempt to mesh the two arguements resulting in your statement being not only unclear but somewhat absurd when it is applied to our discussion, and then saying we are absurd for our point of view...you have sound facts but what your saying quite frankly with how you are saying it has no impact on our discussion and is only causing problems that shouldn't exist.

If we are using two different mines, that clearly operate in different manners, then your mine operating in one way, has no bearing on ours operating in another and should have been stated as a separate matter or as an addition to the discussion, not a way for you to say we are wrong and this is how all mines work.

What stock rifts mine works they way you assumed it does?
As I have repeatedly said I do not know of any stock rifts contact mines(so to my knowledge no mine works that way in rifts), there is a contact trap that can be constructed with a nurni bullet but it is rare and not a stock mine. The most common mine in NA would seam to be the NG mine. The mine I directly covered.

You are discussing how you think it should work I am discussing rules. Then you imply I am wrong for discussing how common mines work in rifts instead of how you assumed mines worked.

How about the mines that started the discussion?
Try looking on page 159 of the GMG?
You know the generic NG Anti-Personnel Mines?
I know you want to ingore the fact that the game does actually use the word "mine" to cover pressure detoneted explosives... but they do do it.
The go on and discuss making such mines in the skill sections.
And since that was what the discussion was ABOUT. Mines that you step on and blow up when pressure is applied to, then ummm...well your entire ranting and insulting is 100% inccorect because you sir, were in the wrong. You jumped into a conversation with out bothering to find out what was actually being discussed, and based on what you THOUGHT was being discussed you leapt to the conclusion that it was something totally different and that therefore everyone elese was an idiot and that youwere the only sane person in the group.
Generally when that happens, one might want to first stop and ask why it is that every other person in the discussion seems to be talking about something totally different than you are... because the chances are in such a case... that you are makeing a mistake somewhere and not aware of the actual discussion.

[Nightmartree]

How about posting a bunch of "Giant Robot Free Zone" signs?

Also, about all you people whine-@$$ing about hit locations, I hereby sentence you to play one session of Battletech(tm, etc.) old style per week, until you learn better.

Honestly if you have a being or organization that can enforce those signs then that is 100% a solution. This could even be the result of an environment, imagine a giant 20 foot tall "No Robots" sign at the edge of a volcanic field, other beings can enter but any giant robot who does weighs too much and shatters the crust falling into lava.

My other idea is a computer virus delivered by missile or special gun. Shoot the enemy and then let your hacker at them. I'm sure that they have some kind of encryption to protect vs espionage but if you break it...well that's a bad day for mr robot

[Khanibal]

My other idea is a computer virus delivered by missile or special gun. Shoot the enemy and then let your hacker at them. I'm sure that they have some kind of encryption to protect vs espionage but if you break it...well that's a bad day for mr robot

Ah, but what if the robot's OS is NOT Safari?

[Nightmartree]

My other idea is a computer virus delivered by missile or special gun. Shoot the enemy and then let your hacker at them. I'm sure that they have some kind of encryption to protect vs espionage but if you break it...well that's a bad day for mr robot

Ah, but what if the robot's OS is NOT Safari?

I don't know...if I can't hunt rhinocode on Safari i'm not sure what to do in virtual reality...i'm super specialized in one virtual environment!

[Khanibal]

Sorry, mandatory Independence Day reference.
BTW I skipped the second movie. Looked more like Depends(tm, pat., etc.) to me.

[ShadowLogan]

How about an EMP weapon (Naruni Wave 2, Shem Nation, and MercOps have examples of such) or a Microwave Weapon (SB3 pg81) to disrupt their sensors. Then again Megaversally speaking a strong microwave environment as described in the 1E RT RPG's Factor Satellite random tables (REF Field Guide) is a bit more potent then there is the (strong) electromagnetic field that can disrupt/damage computer systems.

Reprogram some 'borg auto repair nano/micro-bots (Bionics SB) into attack systems, you just need a delivery system (and the Republic of Japan has such weapons, see WB8).

Tanks themselves might be more cost effective platforms and can match a giant 'bot.

How about posting a bunch of "Giant Robot Free Zone" signs?

Also, about all you people whine-@$$ing about hit locations, I hereby sentence you to play one session of Battletech(tm, etc.) old style per week, until you learn better.

Honestly if you have a being or organization that can enforce those signs then that is 100% a solution. This could even be the result of an environment, imagine a giant 20 foot tall "No Robots" sign at the edge of a volcanic field, other beings can enter but any giant robot who does weighs too much and shatters the crust falling into lava.

My other idea is a computer virus delivered by missile or special gun. Shoot the enemy and then let your hacker at them. I'm sure that they have some kind of encryption to protect vs espionage but if you break it...well that's a bad day for mr robot

Computer Virus is software, you just need to a way to connect (they have radio, though it'd be more of a GM's call). No real need for a missile or gun.

[slade2501]

Plasma missiles/grenades. Any plasma explosive with a blast radius means that the target(s) are standing in the middle of a plasma fireball, and the damage cooks the target uniformly. Meaning that if an armor takes a hit, its not just the main body that gets burnt. its everything. AP missiles of a man portable size have a blast radius of 3-5 feet. that would count for me as a main body hit, not the 15ft blast radius of a plasma missile. thats 15 ft tall, and 15 ft wide, a circular 15ft globe. Lots of things fit inside a 15ft globe. people, half a 30ft robot, 3/4 a 20ft robot, an entire Titan reccon robot, a glitterboy and a half, a Samson and a half, a whole samas and change, a Buick, most of a Cadillac, one and a half stories of a building, 3 circus performers standing on each others shoulders.

You get the picture. and that's just for mini/short range missiles. Once you get into mediums, the blast radius is 40ft, and heavies get up to 50ft.

Math murder is fun.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

Plasma missiles/grenades. Any plasma explosive with a blast radius means that the target(s) are standing in the middle of a plasma fireball, and the damage cooks the target uniformly. Meaning that if an armor takes a hit, its not just the main body that gets burnt. its everything. AP missiles of a man portable size have a blast radius of 3-5 feet. that would count for me as a main body hit, not the 15ft blast radius of a plasma missile. thats 15 ft tall, and 15 ft wide, a circular 15ft globe. Lots of things fit inside a 15ft globe. people, half a 30ft robot, 3/4 a 20ft robot, an entire Titan reccon robot, a glitterboy and a half, a Samson and a half, a whole samas and change, a Buick, most of a Cadillac, one and a half stories of a building, 3 circus performers standing on each others shoulders.

You get the picture. and that's just for mini/short range missiles. Once you get into mediums, the blast radius is 40ft, and heavies get up to 50ft.

Math murder is fun.

Actually since it's blast *radius*, an entire 30 foot robot would fit into it. Depending, of course, on where exactly the explosion originated.

[slade2501]

Plasma missiles/grenades. Any plasma explosive with a blast radius means that the target(s) are standing in the middle of a plasma fireball, and the damage cooks the target uniformly. Meaning that if an armor takes a hit, its not just the main body that gets burnt. its everything. AP missiles of a man portable size have a blast radius of 3-5 feet. that would count for me as a main body hit, not the 15ft blast radius of a plasma missile. thats 15 ft tall, and 15 ft wide, a circular 15ft globe. Lots of things fit inside a 15ft globe. people, half a 30ft robot, 3/4 a 20ft robot, an entire Titan reccon robot, a glitterboy and a half, a Samson and a half, a whole samas and change, a Buick, most of a Cadillac, one and a half stories of a building, 3 circus performers standing on each others shoulders.

You get the picture. and that's just for mini/short range missiles. Once you get into mediums, the blast radius is 40ft, and heavies get up to 50ft.

Math murder is fun.

Actually since it's blast *radius*, an entire 30 foot robot would fit into it. Depending, of course, on where exactly the explosion originated.

yep radius vs diameter. a 15ft radius is a 30 ft globe. that's even better.

[Nightmartree]

Plasma missiles/grenades. Any plasma explosive with a blast radius means that the target(s) are standing in the middle of a plasma fireball, and the damage cooks the target uniformly. Meaning that if an armor takes a hit, its not just the main body that gets burnt. its everything. AP missiles of a man portable size have a blast radius of 3-5 feet. that would count for me as a main body hit, not the 15ft blast radius of a plasma missile. thats 15 ft tall, and 15 ft wide, a circular 15ft globe. Lots of things fit inside a 15ft globe. people, half a 30ft robot, 3/4 a 20ft robot, an entire Titan reccon robot, a glitterboy and a half, a Samson and a half, a whole samas and change, a Buick, most of a Cadillac, one and a half stories of a building, 3 circus performers standing on each others shoulders.

You get the picture. and that's just for mini/short range missiles. Once you get into mediums, the blast radius is 40ft, and heavies get up to 50ft.

Math murder is fun.

I've actually considered this, it gets nastier with volleys, though with fragmentation and high explosive i'd treat as more directional (hits only 1 side of the robot). Actually.......man plasma missiles must play havoc with sensors.

[Khanibal]

Here you go guys WB:08 Japan p.131 for mines.

[Nightmartree]

Here you go guys WB:08 Japan p.131 for mines.

Thanks and cool, i'd forgotten those where there.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Plasma missiles/grenades. Any plasma explosive with a blast radius means that the target(s) are standing in the middle of a plasma fireball, and the damage cooks the target uniformly. Meaning that if an armor takes a hit, its not just the main body that gets burnt. its everything. AP missiles of a man portable size have a blast radius of 3-5 feet. that would count for me as a main body hit, not the 15ft blast radius of a plasma missile. thats 15 ft tall, and 15 ft wide, a circular 15ft globe. Lots of things fit inside a 15ft globe. people, half a 30ft robot, 3/4 a 20ft robot, an entire Titan reccon robot, a glitterboy and a half, a Samson and a half, a whole samas and change, a Buick, most of a Cadillac, one and a half stories of a building, 3 circus performers standing on each others shoulders.

You get the picture. and that's just for mini/short range missiles. Once you get into mediums, the blast radius is 40ft, and heavies get up to 50ft.

Math murder is fun.

Are you trying to say that Plasma explosions deal damage to all parts of a robot/pa/armor?

If so, ill need a citation on that, 'cause that's not how it works.

[Nightmartree]

Plasma missiles/grenades. Any plasma explosive with a blast radius means that the target(s) are standing in the middle of a plasma fireball, and the damage cooks the target uniformly. Meaning that if an armor takes a hit, its not just the main body that gets burnt. its everything. AP missiles of a man portable size have a blast radius of 3-5 feet. that would count for me as a main body hit, not the 15ft blast radius of a plasma missile. thats 15 ft tall, and 15 ft wide, a circular 15ft globe. Lots of things fit inside a 15ft globe. people, half a 30ft robot, 3/4 a 20ft robot, an entire Titan reccon robot, a glitterboy and a half, a Samson and a half, a whole samas and change, a Buick, most of a Cadillac, one and a half stories of a building, 3 circus performers standing on each others shoulders.

You get the picture. and that's just for mini/short range missiles. Once you get into mediums, the blast radius is 40ft, and heavies get up to 50ft.

Math murder is fun.

Are you trying to say that Plasma explosions deal damage to all parts of a robot/pa/armor?

If so, ill need a citation on that, 'cause that's not how it works.

How it works is an opinion, in his understanding of a plasma missile it fills they area of effect with plasma surrounding a robot with a material that does MD on all sides at least more equally than other forms of MD missiles. Essentialling turning the 15 foot radius of the missile into a hostile enviroment, not generating an explosion with blast waves and fragmentary fragments like other missiles.

If that is the understanding of plasma missiles he uses they why would it not equally damage all parts of a robot? besides easing bookkeeping by making it all go to main body?

I'd like the citation for exactly how a plasma missile work

[Killer Cyborg]

Plasma missiles/grenades. Any plasma explosive with a blast radius means that the target(s) are standing in the middle of a plasma fireball, and the damage cooks the target uniformly. Meaning that if an armor takes a hit, its not just the main body that gets burnt. its everything. AP missiles of a man portable size have a blast radius of 3-5 feet. that would count for me as a main body hit, not the 15ft blast radius of a plasma missile. thats 15 ft tall, and 15 ft wide, a circular 15ft globe. Lots of things fit inside a 15ft globe. people, half a 30ft robot, 3/4 a 20ft robot, an entire Titan reccon robot, a glitterboy and a half, a Samson and a half, a whole samas and change, a Buick, most of a Cadillac, one and a half stories of a building, 3 circus performers standing on each others shoulders.

You get the picture. and that's just for mini/short range missiles. Once you get into mediums, the blast radius is 40ft, and heavies get up to 50ft.

Math murder is fun.

Are you trying to say that Plasma explosions deal damage to all parts of a robot/pa/armor?

If so, ill need a citation on that, 'cause that's not how it works.

How it works is an opinion, in his understanding of a plasma missile it fills they area of effect with plasma surrounding a robot with a material that does MD on all sides at least more equally than other forms of MD missiles. Essentialling turning the 15 foot radius of the missile into a hostile enviroment, not generating an explosion with blast waves and fragmentary fragments like other missiles.

If that is the understanding of plasma missiles he uses they why would it not equally damage all parts of a robot? besides easing bookkeeping by making it all go to main body?

I'd like the citation for exactly how a plasma missile work

Officially, the ONLY way to hit anything other than the Main Body is with a Called Shot.
Blast Areas aren't Called Shots.
Ergo, blast areas cannot hit anything other than the Main Body.

People have argued about this kind of thing before, a LOT, so back in 2005 when I got a chance to talk to Kevin at GenCon, I asked him about whether blast radii hit all body parts, or just the main body.
He said it depends on how deadly you want your game to be.
Which isn't all that helpful, but there you go.

It'd sure make non-environmental body armor pretty useless any time a grenade went off, though.

[Nightmartree]

Officially, the ONLY way to hit anything other than the Main Body is with a Called Shot.
Blast Areas aren't Called Shots.
Ergo, blast areas cannot hit anything other than the Main Body.

People have argued about this kind of thing before, a LOT, so back in 2005 when I got a chance to talk to Kevin at GenCon, I asked him about whether blast radii hit all body parts, or just the main body.
He said it depends on how deadly you want your game to be.
Which isn't all that helpful, but there you go.

It'd sure make non-environmental body armor pretty useless any time a grenade went off, though.

Yep, i'd also like to point out one thing...how often do you ask your players if they're wearing their helmets? not trying to start something just saying technically everyone with their helmet off dies nearly instantly in a MD world, and how is that helmet attached? if a MD round pushes your head back in armor...that probably equals death even if it doesn't go through your armor. So much requires suspension of disbelief i have no issue with people in non-enviromental armor survivng a plasma missile while the little bits on a robot melt, or even the robot just taking it to MDC most times, its only if the players and or GM feel that the missile should impact the other parts of the robots body that this matters and thats a GM call for your table. If they also feel that non-environmental armors don't protect you from MD aoe.....well hopefully they play a lot of MD creatures.


I's prefer people to give a reason why something would not work, or point things out that may impact the idea instead of just saying someone is wrong. (noting that officially the rules don't allow this is alright, then it becomes a "would you allow this as a house rule" situation though)

Not saying you said anyone was wrong killer cyborg (makes you wonder how many people who did made it out alive...) that bit is just a general statement for the world at large (do faeries call it the world at large or the world at very large?)

[taalismn]

How about giant lawn rakes, the 'bot/pa steps on them and you get smacked in the head (always important to lay a rake down so you can't step on it and get smacked".

Or an indestructible Toll Stop.

Bridges with a weight limit (might not work with some of the lighter units, but...)

How about a TW device that makes anyone/thing in a certain radius play Red-Light/Green-Light.

A bit of Ludicrous Magic, Pie to the Face (or sensor/head area).

Or Wrap In Toilet Paper.
Major ego blow to be Charmin'ed, then step into a trap.

[Nightmartree]

How about giant lawn rakes, the 'bot/pa steps on them and you get smacked in the head (always important to lay a rake down so you can't step on it and get smacked".

Or an indestructible Toll Stop.

Bridges with a weight limit (might not work with some of the lighter units, but...)

How about a TW device that makes anyone/thing in a certain radius play Red-Light/Green-Light.

A bit of Ludicrous Magic, Pie to the Face (or sensor/head area).

Or Wrap In Toilet Paper.
Major ego blow to be Charmin'ed, then step into a trap.

Charmin'ed, Greased, and lit on fire, no actual harm to the robot but the faeries love it and they get to run around screaming cause a "Giant Mummy is coming!"...imagine meeting that encounter in the wilderness, a CS robot blinded, weapons sabotaged, running around in burning "bandages" as a group of faeries makes "mummy" sound effects for it and run around screaming.

just a bit of fun with the "big stupids"

[Killer Cyborg]

Officially, the ONLY way to hit anything other than the Main Body is with a Called Shot.
Blast Areas aren't Called Shots.
Ergo, blast areas cannot hit anything other than the Main Body.

People have argued about this kind of thing before, a LOT, so back in 2005 when I got a chance to talk to Kevin at GenCon, I asked him about whether blast radii hit all body parts, or just the main body.
He said it depends on how deadly you want your game to be.
Which isn't all that helpful, but there you go.

It'd sure make non-environmental body armor pretty useless any time a grenade went off, though.

Yep, i'd also like to point out one thing...how often do you ask your players if they're wearing their helmets?

Any time I have reason to believe their helmet might be off.

not trying to start something just saying technically everyone with their helmet off dies nearly instantly in a MD world, and how is that helmet attached? if a MD round pushes your head back in armor...that probably equals death even if it doesn't go through your armor. So much requires suspension of disbelief i have no issue with people in non-enviromental armor survivng a plasma missile while the little bits on a robot melt,

The inconsistency there would break me out of suspension of disbelief.
Even if I got around the whole bit of "wait... so a dragon that doesn't have its MDC statted per body part takes an average of 10 MD from this grenade total... but a robot dragon that looks identical, and DOES have MDC listed per location takes 10 MD from the grenade, and 5 MD x (total number of other listed body parts) on top of that?"

But to each their own.

[Nightmartree]

The inconsistency there would break me out of suspension of disbelief.
Even if I got around the whole bit of "wait... so a dragon that doesn't have its MDC statted per body part takes an average of 10 MD from this grenade total... but a robot dragon that looks identical, and DOES have MDC listed per location takes 10 MD from the grenade, and 5 MD x (total number of other listed body parts) on top of that?"

To this my question is where are the damage by location for other beings? Its not just a robot that can be shot in the leg or arm and have it blown off or rendered useless. In fact I believe several beings have specific MDC listed for a portion of their appendages (though not all) so why is it that only those creatures have those appendages statted?

I'm genuinely curious the best reasons I can think of to why we don't have this is 1) we don't normally think of living beings as "parts" 2) Its a lot of work to do combat when you specifically have to keep track of multiple areas on 1 being (which is why robot hit locations are ignored a lot of the time, something I agree with) and 3) probably be considered freaky and unpleasant to have SPECIFIC rules for delimbing "people"

But to each their own.

Yep

Edit: actually found several examples of beings in WB 2 fully stated out per limb, the spluguroth and metztla both have this treatment,

[Killer Cyborg]

The inconsistency there would break me out of suspension of disbelief.
Even if I got around the whole bit of "wait... so a dragon that doesn't have its MDC statted per body part takes an average of 10 MD from this grenade total... but a robot dragon that looks identical, and DOES have MDC listed per location takes 10 MD from the grenade, and 5 MD x (total number of other listed body parts) on top of that?"

To this my question is where are the damage by location for other beings? Its not just a robot that can be shot in the leg or arm and have it blown off or rendered useless. In fact I believe several beings have specific MDC listed for a portion of their appendages (though not all) so why is it that only those creatures have those appendages statted?

Palladium is inconsistent that way.
Some creatures have everything statted, most don't.

probably be considered freaky and unpleasant to have SPECIFIC rules for delimbing "people"

I guess it's a good thing I never finished my own RPG rules...

[Nightmartree]

probably be considered freaky and unpleasant to have SPECIFIC rules for delimbing "people"

I guess it's a good thing I never finished my own RPG rules...

Well depends on the RPG your writing, the one i'm working on it doesn't really come up, but if i made a campaign based on say...Dead Space i'd better have some delimbing rules floating around.

gotta say, Dead Space was an eye opener, i've never been so encouraged and happy to blow the limbs off of things...now that would be a game we need limbs stated for and here your characters/players would be freaking out, if they have no idea what they are walking into and they blow its brains all over the wall AND IT KEEPS COMING AT THEM...most people who sit at a table with me would fall back on one of two solutions cut off all its limbs and see if it twitches, or "KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!"... but they are either psychotic or experienced gamers, we all subscribe to "If that explosion didn't kill it we need a bigger bomb" school of solutions.

[taalismn]

Yep, i'd also like to point out one thing...how often do you ask your players if they're wearing their helmets?

Any time I have reason to believe their helmet might be off..

This would be contradictory to the dramatic law of facial exposure; major characters run around with their heads and faces fully exposed so the audience can see, identify and sympathize with them. Redshirt mooks wear their brain buckets and full armor and get blown away all the time because nobody can see what they look like, and thus, not care.

Applied to giant 'bots, this would argue in favor of clear glass canopies or open cockpits. The guys behind layers of armor get wasted(refer: Pacific Rim: Striker Eureka's crew survives, the other two Jaeger teams get smoked...)

[Nightmartree]

Applied to giant 'bots, this would argue in favor of clear glass canopies or open cockpits. The guys behind layers of armor get wasted(refer: Pacific Rim: Striker Eureka's crew survives, the other two Jaeger teams get smoked...)

you mean like having an open air cockpit on top of your robots head automatically makes you immune to all falling debris and makes the pilot immune to falling out? (others may fall occasionally if not strapped in but not the pilot)

[Blue_Lion]

I am talking about common rifts mines. I do not know of any stock rifts mines that are contact detonated. (I even stated what I was talking about in the very beginning that damage to the legs is not inline with the rules of rifts with out a called shot.) I was very clear on what I was stating the flaw is not mine but yours.

Yes we are using different mines; I am using the common mines such as NG AV mines and you are using one that I do not know the source. All the stock mines I have seen are stated as when target is in X range. That I have also been clear about you then claim my logic is flawed when there is no flaw in it. You where talking past me without understanding what I said(or even the stated why) then claiming the flaw was mine.

(While stating that by default blowing up the legs is not inline with the rules, I gave a way for you to get the intended results. -Rather than just saying you can't I gave you away to get your desired result using the rules.)

(Contact mines often require channeling drive the target into the mines to be successful giving that a running robot cold easily have a stride longer than 30' they may have a low success rate even with channeling. That could be why they went with the more effective proximity mine default, so you do not need to calculate if the robot stepped on it.)

what I don't understand is how you think that changing the assumed mine and then telling us we are wrong because THAT kind of mine operates in a specific manner is sound logic? When it was clear that we were discussing a mine exploding beneath someone you proceed to go off on a tangent and then declare the main line of discussion flawed because of an alteration in the basic premise. With no attempt to mesh the two arguements resulting in your statement being not only unclear but somewhat absurd when it is applied to our discussion, and then saying we are absurd for our point of view...you have sound facts but what your saying quite frankly with how you are saying it has no impact on our discussion and is only causing problems that shouldn't exist.

If we are using two different mines, that clearly operate in different manners, then your mine operating in one way, has no bearing on ours operating in another and should have been stated as a separate matter or as an addition to the discussion, not a way for you to say we are wrong and this is how all mines work.

What stock rifts mine works they way you assumed it does?
As I have repeatedly said I do not know of any stock rifts contact mines(so to my knowledge no mine works that way in rifts), there is a contact trap that can be constructed with a nurni bullet but it is rare and not a stock mine. The most common mine in NA would seam to be the NG mine. The mine I directly covered.

You are discussing how you think it should work I am discussing rules. Then you imply I am wrong for discussing how common mines work in rifts instead of how you assumed mines worked.

How about the mines that started the discussion?
Try looking on page 159 of the GMG?
You know the generic NG Anti-Personnel Mines?
I know you want to ingore the fact that the game does actually use the word "mine" to cover pressure detoneted explosives... but they do do it.
The go on and discuss making such mines in the skill sections.
And since that was what the discussion was ABOUT. Mines that you step on and blow up when pressure is applied to, then ummm...well your entire ranting and insulting is 100% inccorect because you sir, were in the wrong. You jumped into a conversation with out bothering to find out what was actually being discussed, and based on what you THOUGHT was being discussed you leapt to the conclusion that it was something totally different and that therefore everyone elese was an idiot and that youwere the only sane person in the group.
Generally when that happens, one might want to first stop and ask why it is that every other person in the discussion seems to be talking about something totally different than you are... because the chances are in such a case... that you are makeing a mistake somewhere and not aware of the actual discussion.

eliakon do not make personal attacks. Asking for mines that are contact is not me ignoring them but as I stated being unaware. Saying I choose to ingore it is not only wrong but a personal attack.

What rule allows a pressure sensitive mine to damage the feet? None that means the rule about needing a called shot applies. So why it might seam logical for it to do so, it is not in line with the rules my original statement.

Before I started talking about proximity mines I opened with a statement about what I wast talking about. I focused on the mines I knew NG av. I never addressed contact mines I asked what mines where contact but when I talked about how mines work I never addressed them. So assuming the conversation was about contact mines was is likely what the error was. If I state I am talking about X you challene it by talking about Y, I was not wrong talking about x.

[Nightmartree]

So assuming the conversation was about contact mines was is likely what the error was. If I state I am talking about X you challene it by talking about Y, I was not wrong talking about x.

I believe the issue started when you tried to explain why our discussing contact mines was "absurd", because you were simultaneously saying two things. One being that the mines you were aware of were proximity and thus wouldn't hit the legs, this being an argument that assumes that there are circumstances when you would hit the legs, and Two that mines can't make called shots and therefore hit main body. While also arguing that a called shot could be made by a person using a remote detonated mine to hit the legs/tracks of something.

and very early (very early is relative, despite how long it feels this entire thing was only a few posts...) on in response to a question from me about what you were trying to say (I was not intentionally being provocative, but I have a history of being an ass without realizing it) we apparently went left and right from each other with you going full on proximity mines and me talking about pressure mines and then it went south from there. With essentially me saying your wrong for doing what I just quoted and you telling me i'm wrong because X, Y, Z (all of which X, Y, and Z are correct, but also not what I was discussing).

the whole thing looks a LOOOOOOOT less intelligent when your no longer worker up about it and reading back through it clear headedly. I'd also like to point out that your facts are all good, never denied that. They just are referring to a type of mine different than the one we were discussing, I mean you even said if its a proximity mine why should it hit the legs. So my side is if its a pressure mine...why shouldn't it?

And i'm still looking for anything specific on mines hitting legs, if I can't find it i'm assuming I got that conclusion from the explosives used by a certain NGR power armor that are placed on specific limbs for detonation.

[Blue_Lion]

So assuming the conversation was about contact mines was is likely what the error was. If I state I am talking about X you challene it by talking about Y, I was not wrong talking about x.

I believe the issue started when you tried to explain why our discussing contact mines was "absurd", because you were simultaneously saying two things. One being that the mines you were aware of were proximity and thus wouldn't hit the legs, this being an argument that assumes that there are circumstances when you would hit the legs, and Two that mines can't make called shots and therefore hit main body. While also arguing that a called shot could be made by a person using a remote detonated mine to hit the legs/tracks of something.

and very early (very early is relative, despite how long it feels this entire thing was only a few posts...) on in response to a question from me about what you were trying to say (I was not intentionally being provocative, but I have a history of being an ass without realizing it) we apparently went left and right from each other with you going full on proximity mines and me talking about pressure mines and then it went south from there. With essentially me saying your wrong for doing what I just quoted and you telling me i'm wrong because X, Y, Z (all of which X, Y, and Z are correct, but also not what I was discussing).

the whole thing looks a LOOOOOOOT less intelligent when your no longer worker up about it and reading back through it clear headedly. I'd also like to point out that your facts are all good, never denied that. They just are referring to a type of mine different than the one we were discussing, I mean you even said if its a proximity mine why should it hit the legs. So my side is if its a pressure mine...why shouldn't it?

And i'm still looking for anything specific on mines hitting legs, if I can't find it i'm assuming I got that conclusion from the explosives used by a certain NGR power armor that are placed on specific limbs for detonation.

If we are thinking of the same armor it shoots modified fusion block missiles. For it to damage other than the main body requires a called shot the damage is just delayed. This seams a stretch to me to say the rules justify damage by mines to limbs without a called shot as a called shot was used to place the missile.

I did say the only time I know of mines state they strike the legs was on the rolling thunder so I was addressing when the books say they strike the legs, not when I think they should.

(So while logical to assume they damage the legs it does not appear to be inline with the rules. I never claimed it was not logical for them to do so, just that it does not match up with RAW.)

[Blue_Lion]

Officially, the ONLY way to hit anything other than the Main Body is with a Called Shot.
Blast Areas aren't Called Shots.
Ergo, blast areas cannot hit anything other than the Main Body.

People have argued about this kind of thing before, a LOT, so back in 2005 when I got a chance to talk to Kevin at GenCon, I asked him about whether blast radii hit all body parts, or just the main body.
He said it depends on how deadly you want your game to be.
Which isn't all that helpful, but there you go.

It'd sure make non-environmental body armor pretty useless any time a grenade went off, though.

Yep, i'd also like to point out one thing...how often do you ask your players if they're wearing their helmets?

Any time I have reason to believe their helmet might be off.

not trying to start something just saying technically everyone with their helmet off dies nearly instantly in a MD world, and how is that helmet attached? if a MD round pushes your head back in armor...that probably equals death even if it doesn't go through your armor. So much requires suspension of disbelief i have no issue with people in non-enviromental armor survivng a plasma missile while the little bits on a robot melt,

The inconsistency there would break me out of suspension of disbelief.
Even if I got around the whole bit of "wait... so a dragon that doesn't have its MDC statted per body part takes an average of 10 MD from this grenade total... but a robot dragon that looks identical, and DOES have MDC listed per location takes 10 MD from the grenade, and 5 MD x (total number of other listed body parts) on top of that?"

But to each their own.

I think this is why the default is to damage strike other than the main body requires a called shot. (The idea being that if no called shot is made only the main body takes damage, other wise every ley line would die the first time they are caught in a aoe. As the damage would logically be to every part facing the blast would take damage and they do not start in with eba. Dog boys would aslo die for the same reason.)

[Nightmartree]

The only place I know of saying a mine can destroy wheels is the flavor text of a rolling thunder apc Juicer uprising. It does not say they are immune to the need to make a called shot to hit other than the main body or list any mechanics of how it deals damage to the wheels. Giving that the mine is primary a remote detonated mine in the vehicle and is intended to be used against moving vehicles. Striking with the mine like this would require timing, so could reasonably require a strike roll. Miss the roll and you either blow the mine before or after the vehicle is in range a called shot could then be used to hit other than the main body. (There is no statement that I know of that says mines do not need to make a called shot to hit other than the main body.)
In Triax there is a special missile that can target other than the main body but this an acceptation to the normal rule on missiles.

NG mines are triggered by proximity (x') or remote detonation, they are not contact mines. So the blast of a NG mine would be very much like a grenade hitting the main body. Basically normally the leg or wheel will not be in contact with the mine unless you find a way to detonate it when they are, something that would be hard to do with an left behind proximity detonated mine.

So you write all this basically saying "mines don't hit specific locations except for a specific called shot situation"

How are the mines in questioned detonated?
NG AV mines detonate when a target comes within X feet, (X changes based on size of the mine.) or when remote detonated. If the robot or PA is 20 feet away why is it damaging the feet/leg and not the main body?

and then put this which basically says that the way the mine detonates determines what it hits with the example being that mines that explode when you aren't standing on them should hit main body...

i'm not sure exactly what your arguing besides maybe noting that some mines are proximity not pressure trigger and those would hit main body not legs? which is a similar situation to what i noted with bounder mines though a different trigger mechanism both would hit main body not legs.

Please explain how this is a conversation limited to contact mines? It seams to me at this point assuming we are talking about only contact mines is blatantly wrong.

I was in the first post talking about a rules related to mines hitting anything other than the main body and the second I straight up asked what mines you are talking about. As you never specified we where talking about a specific mine there was no reason for me to address anything other than the only time I know that the books mention a mine doing damage to any thing other than the main body.

So I was addressing RAW you replied appearing to want clarification of what I said so later post focused on clarifying the point of the RAW mine. If at this point you are only addressing contact mines then it would appear to me you where not in the same conversation. And your claims I was wrong because I was not addressing contact mines seams irrelevant to what was said.(I never addressed contact mines because there is nothing in the books stating they do damage to anything other than the main body that I know of. As we have a rule it takes a called shot or nat 20 to damage anything other than a main body simply assuming they do damage to the leg may be logical but does not appear to be in line with the rules.)

You posted back to back posts one of which says that "Mines do this according to the rules" and then one that says "mines detonating in this form should do this" one of these is saying book rules don't allow what your talking about (okay) and then the other is saying a mines method of detonation should determine what it hits (which i'd said shortly beforehand). There are numerous posts before discussing robots detonating mines by falling on them or stepping on them, which is implausible though I guess doable with proximity mines. So when you asked what mine, and then immediately followed it up with a mine and the assumption that we were using it I was more confused because you used an argument that was undermining your other point using that mine.

quite simply after everything else you'd said i'd forgotten you'd even asked about what mine because I was too confused trying to figure out what in the world you were saying.

I was pointing out that a mine is not exempt to the need for a called shot, hit other than the main body. A command detonated mine can be with GM progative used with a called shot.

The second part I am pointing out how absurd the assumption they should be hitting the leg is. To my knowledge all mines standard rifts are proximity with NG having command/proximity mines. It is not setting a case to make mines immune to the needs a called shot. But pointing out why assuming they should it the legs with mines is flawed as rifts mines are stated as proximity when target comes within X'.

And this just cemented my belief that you weren't actually looking for an answer because AGAIN you argue for one thing that should be an absolute, and then the evidence you use in the next paragraph assumes that there is another way for damage to be dealt. Though i'll admit I missed the bolded line but your doing exactly that, your saying that the mines trigger device (Proximity) makes it absurd to damage the legs, that implies that its NOT absurd to damage the legs some other way with a mine. This falls in line with what everyone else was discussing before you started to zero in on proximity mines while saying mines only hit main body because of the rules, and then two seconds later telling us we are wrong because a proximity mine can't be in contact with someone's leg when it explodes.

If the rules say it can only hit main body stick to that, we'd have shifted to house rules. If its a matter of requiring contact with the item about to detonate (as we have seen can be done with placed explosives) then the mines we were discussing were not proximity mines from the start. In neither situation would our beliefs be absurd, and the only person who would be wrong would be my belief that i've seen a mine somewhere with explanation of how it will damage the feet/legs instead of main body. Finally you clearly state something, but still are saying i'm wrong (because at this point its really not about the original discussion at all) because you are discussing proximity mines and a specific situation to make "my" mine hit specific parts of a robot (gotta ask how they hit anything BUT legs) and that i'm not inline with the rules of how the game works. Only ONE of these things is actually relevant. The matter of the rules, which I would like to point out 1) there are cases in book of *gasp* explosives damaging specific parts of robots they are attached to 2) there is a nice rant in the CB1 about using common sense (refering to sdc characters shooting themselves in the head and GMs letting them do it because they have the sdc to take it, I feel it applies here nicely anyway) and 3) if it was decided that it was not applicable by the basic rules i'd discuss it as a house rule that's all assuming 4) I don't actually find that mine I remember, which may be a delusion but i'm still searching. This means that proximity mines and the case of a remote detonated mine requiring a called shot do not relate to the original discussion I was having before, they may have a place in this thread as anti-robot solutions, but they are NOT reasons to tell someone else they are wrong on their beliefs. Which is what this entire thing has been, you saying a matter that I was discussing with someone else was wrong because proximity mines don't work that way. If it wasn't you'd have just said the rules don't agree with that and none of this would have happened.

and now I've spent I don't know how long typing thing but its now 6 AM and I was ready for bed at 2,so goodnight

[Blue_Lion]

*You seam to be misrepresenting my point, in your cherry picking.*
I was discussing rules regarding the one reference I know of where mines are stated to hit something other than the main body. And stating that the reference does not make them immune to the need for a called shot but I was pointing out the mine that lists that abilty could be used with a called shot.

That was the key point I was addressing. How does the mine that says it hits the legs/wheels do it. That is the key, does the mine reference set precedence that all mines do damage to wheels/legs. So the context limits what I am talking about to one mine, and once that mine in context prevents a default damage legs/tires by mines, all other mines in that context are irrelevant.

*But let me be clear. my stance -The rule is to strike(damage) other than the main body requires a called shot or nat 20.The ability of some mines to make called shots does not mean mines do not need to make called shots to do so*
*your counter seam tome to be attempting to prove that because 1 mine (and 1 special type of missile) can do called shots thus damage other areas, an unrelated type of mine can do damage to other areas without a called shot.*

(It may be logical to assume the mine damages the legs, but that does not appear to be in line with the rules.)

[slade2501]

Plasma explosions, ok heres a question folks: why give a weapon that can only damage the main body of a target a blast radius? it hits every main body inside a 15 ft radius? ever main body only inside a 30ft globe? or does it burn everything inside that 30 ft, like the trees, rocks, ground, etc. does a gas explosion only damage the people in it, or does it burn walls, blow out windows, set furniture on fire, etc? main body damage only eases record-keeping but it don't work for realism with explosions.

and trust me, nothing feels more real then being ringside to an explosion. they are some scary stuff yo.

plasma missiles are basically ballistic fuel/air explosions, as ANYTING burns at the touch of plasma: air, trees, rock, stone, brick metal glass, concrete. Watch a video of a plasma torch cutting damn near anything then imagine that by Rifts rules a plasma torch is a 1md or less damage tool. plasma missiles or grenades is like getting belched on by a STAR. The surface of teh sun is 5605 Celsius on average. the temperature of a plasma torch is 28000 °C. thats 5 times hotter than the surface of our sun.

its gonna hurt, and its gonna hurt your EVERYTHING.