This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on...

[Zer0 Kay]

Space is not a thing, or you could telekinetically cause a wind rush.

So how does a fan work? A perfect vacume is nothing but air is a thing air has molacules and mass. Telekinetically you could cause a wind rush cause your TK hand to move like a fan like you do when you fan yourself.

[Traska]

If a house is part of a housing development, wherein the houses are plunked down cookie-cutter style... does it cease to be a place, because there are identical houses?

Secondly, the space being part of the bot? Hogwash. If that's true, then you're altering the bot every time you open the hatch, because old air flows out, and new air flows in. That's like claiming the bits of rock left over after you chisel a statue are part of the statue.

[Zer0 Kay]

If a house is part of a housing development, wherein the houses are plunked down cookie-cutter style... does it cease to be a place, because there are identical houses?

Secondly, the space being part of the bot? Hogwash. If that's true, then you're altering the bot every time you open the hatch, because old air flows out, and new air flows in. That's like claiming the bits of rock left over after you chisel a statue are part of the statue.

Yeah or like the mother being part of the child...hey wait a second.

I get what your saying. However the space is part of the Robot if there is no space then there is no cockpit. As Lao Tsu says it is the nothing in a cup or at the hub of a wheel that makes it usefull. To say that space is not part of a robot is to say that you can not measure the area of the cockpit who cares if there is air or water or FART in it the space is there it is always there and it is part of the robot. A pilot changes the amount of space available but the size of the space is unchanged. Take a circle, the area never changes unless you put something in it even then the diameter did not change. The circle can still hold the same amount that it could before minus the area taken by the pilot. Space is a part of everything. If you had no space in your head you would not speak, breath or hear.

[The Galactus Kid]

I can't believe this thread is this active with all of you arguing semantics. It should be easy to see that some people read the spell one way, and others read it another. You should clear it with your individual gamemaster before you start and come to a consensus between you two and pla it that way. If this crap was going on in my campaign, I would put an end to it rather quickly. Regardless, I don't think the topic requires the ammount of flamebaiting that is going on, especially when discusing simple definitions of grammatical terms and parts of speech. Play and enjoy, or quit your nancy whining.

[Killer Cyborg]

with the examples you had of the house, car and planet, if you HAD TO CHOOSE between place or thing, what would you choose? I think a car is a thing, because when you are looking for a car, you look in the place you left it. If asked "where is your car?" you say "At my house." House being the place. Now sure, if someone asked where your keys are, and you say "In my car," yes you are useing it as a place. However, that doesn't help you find your keys if your car has been towed.

If you had to choose, would you say an apple is fruit or food?
If you have to choose, then something is wrong, because it is clearly both.

I looked at the discription of the teleport spell in my BOM last night (which is a big typo in my book, two lines are double printed. Anyone else?) and it said that if the mage teleports into a thing, he instently dies.

An atmosphere is a thing.
Wow... that spell is dangerous!

[quote] I found that interesting. I was also thinking about the cockpit idea. don't most cockpits look, well, the same? if you teleport into a sam, for example, there are millions of samas! All the insides look the same. This brings out an interesting diffrence in a place compared to a thing. A place is unique. There is only one Baltimore, MD. There is only one waterfall in the woods near my house. There is only one my house! There are lots of Sammas, lots of APCs, lots of ever kind of robot. I wouldn't think that the same transportation spell could take you to both. [quote]

Nope.
You see the inside of one UAR-1, then you can only teleport into that one.
Just like if you travel to the middle of the ocean where there is nothing to see but water and sky.
It may look like any number of other locations, but it's not.
Same goes with desert. Or spots in the sky. Or Space.
Or a dark room.

[Killer Cyborg]

I can't believe this thread is this active with all of you arguing semantics.

We're not arguing semantics, we're debating terminology.

[Killer Cyborg]

Does the mage teleport inbetween molecules of air?

Well, he would have to wouldn't he?
Otherwise he'd suddenly be full of air.

[Zer0 Kay]

Space is not a thing, or you could telekinetically cause a wind rush.

So how does a fan work? A perfect vacume is nothing but air is a thing air has molacules and mass. Telekinetically you could cause a wind rush cause your TK hand to move like a fan like you do when you fan yourself.

A fan works by pushing the air molecules.

You think any thing is a 'thing' for the purposes of magic? Air is for the most part considered space. You die if you teleport into an object, you don't die if you teleport or phase into air. The mage appears from a centrepoint, POP, and the air DOES move, but only as a result of the mage filling it, not the magic displacing it.

Why yes that is how a fan works so why wouldn't TK work the same way? It pushes molecules.

I was arguing "thing" for the definition of "thing" not what matter is and is not effected by teleport. The mage appears how ever you want if you want your t-port to start at a centerpoint and move out fine. I have always had my mage dissapear from one location and instantly appear in another. No matter expanded from a centerpoint. I'm here now I'm here. No fade out fade in. No Star Trek Teleporter sequence (any gen.).

[Zer0 Kay]

Does the mage teleport inbetween molecules of air?

Well, he would have to wouldn't he?
Otherwise he'd suddenly be full of air.

Ew gassy mage.

[Vrykolas2k]

The inside of a vehicle or bot is a place, therefor you can teleport there.

[Killer Cyborg]

To make a long story short, what you are saying about defineing objects with multiple catigories is illogical, it just doesn't make sense! It's not your fault that you didn't know this. I don't expect anyone to do square roots in their heads. Logical form is not often available to learn. I think you see now that you really do have to pick one definition that makes sense for the subject in question. I HOPE you understand at least where I am coming from and that I'm not crazy.

Nope. You're just crazy.
Or at least, confused.

And with the UAR-1, how would you specify other then saying 'The one I have seen?' What if you've seen 100?

You don't have to specify. You form the image in your head and the magic takes you there.
How does the magic know which one you mean?
Because it's magic.

[Dr. Doom III]

And with the UAR-1, how would you specify other then saying 'The one I have seen?' What if you've seen 100?

You go to the one you're thinking of.

[Vrykolas2k]

And with the UAR-1, how would you specify other then saying 'The one I have seen?' What if you've seen 100?

You go to the one you're thinking of.

Blonde ley line walker, who would have been a cheerleader in another life, sitting in the wrong UAR-1. She's twirling her finger in her hair, looking vacant while cracking her gum: "Like. It was. It was like. Really."

[Zer0 Kay]

And with the UAR-1, how would you specify other then saying 'The one I have seen?' What if you've seen 100?

You go to the one you're thinking of.

Blonde ley line walker, who would have been a cheerleader in another life, sitting in the wrong UAR-1. She's twirling her finger in her hair, looking vacant while cracking her gum: "Like. It was. It was like. Really."

Her teleport career would be short seeing how vacuous she is. "I'm like, trying to visualize it. But, like all I can see is like nothing." Bampf teleported to space.

[Killer Cyborg]

And with the UAR-1, how would you specify other then saying 'The one I have seen?' What if you've seen 100?

You go to the one you're thinking of.

We have now come to the fundimental differance in thinking. The no camp thinks that magic is an exact science that take years to learn and great skill and knowledge to use. Also like another science.

The Yes camp thinks that magic is in fact a version of DBZ. Fireball? NO PROBLEMO!!! (Summon Energy) POWER UP! BLAM!!!

Come now, even D&D has serious magic spells.

Regardless, even though the books treat magic in a science kind of way, the authors would be quick to say 'do what you like and be happy with it.' So, whatever. Teleport into the specific bot you are "thinking of," Even though the only diffrence between that bot and the one in the next hanger is what you see out the sensors. As long as you can be consistent, I won't argue with it.

I will, however, argue that magic is like science.

Scientifically, there are NO identical bots or vehicles anywhere on the entire face of Rifts Earth.
There will always be slight differences, fuzzy dice, scratches on the paint, leather upholstry, blood stains, or even a slightly different molecular composition in the alloys used to make the bot.

[Zer0 Kay]

If a house is part of a housing development, wherein the houses are plunked down cookie-cutter style... does it cease to be a place, because there are identical houses?

Secondly, the space being part of the bot? Hogwash. If that's true, then you're altering the bot every time you open the hatch, because old air flows out, and new air flows in. That's like claiming the bits of rock left over after you chisel a statue are part of the statue.

Yeah or like the mother being part of the child...hey wait a second.

I get what your saying. However the space is part of the Robot if there is no space then there is no cockpit. As Lao Tsu says it is the nothing in a cup or at the hub of a wheel that makes it usefull. To say that space is not part of a robot is to say that you can not measure the area of the cockpit who cares if there is air or water or FART in it the space is there it is always there and it is part of the robot. A pilot changes the amount of space available but the size of the space is unchanged. Take a circle, the area never changes unless you put something in it even then the diameter did not change. The circle can still hold the same amount that it could before minus the area taken by the pilot. Space is a part of everything. If you had no space in your head you would not speak, breath or hear.

I feel a kindred spirit.....
I can't belive you brought up Lao Tsu. Very cool. I can only hope to argue against you lots in the future.

How about debate or converse?


Oh and adding to your what if you've seen a hundred UAR-1s what if the "picture" you saw was the blueprints...which one do you teleport to then? I had posted earlier that in order to make it work properly you would have to send the pilot a set of fuzzy dice to hang in the cockpit so you could designate which one. Doom brought up that you don't need to that is what the failure tables are for. Another option would be that when the mage is visualizing the destination it's not just the point he wants to appear at but everything he knows about it. Therefore a mage seeing the hull number on the outside of a UAR-1 can visualize the outside of the UAR-1 and then the inside. Maybe??

[Zer0 Kay]

And with the UAR-1, how would you specify other then saying 'The one I have seen?' What if you've seen 100?

You go to the one you're thinking of.

We have now come to the fundimental differance in thinking. The no camp thinks that magic is an exact science that take years to learn and great skill and knowledge to use. Also like another science.

The Yes camp thinks that magic is in fact a version of DBZ. Fireball? NO PROBLEMO!!! (Summon Energy) POWER UP! BLAM!!!

Come now, even D&D has serious magic spells.

Regardless, even though the books treat magic in a science kind of way, the authors would be quick to say 'do what you like and be happy with it.' So, whatever. Teleport into the specific bot you are "thinking of," Even though the only diffrence between that bot and the one in the next hanger is what you see out the sensors. As long as you can be consistent, I won't argue with it.

I will, however, argue that magic is like science.

Scientifically, there are NO identical bots or vehicles anywhere on the entire face of Rifts Earth.
There will always be slight differences, fuzzy dice, scratches on the paint, leather upholstry, blood stains, or even a slightly different molecular composition in the alloys used to make the bot.

Has everyone forgot that most CS equipment has hull numbers on them?

[Zer0 Kay]

And with the UAR-1, how would you specify other then saying 'The one I have seen?' What if you've seen 100?

You go to the one you're thinking of.

We have now come to the fundimental differance in thinking. The no camp thinks that magic is an exact science that take years to learn and great skill and knowledge to use. Also like another science.

The Yes camp thinks that magic is in fact a version of DBZ. Fireball? NO PROBLEMO!!! (Summon Energy) POWER UP! BLAM!!!

Come now, even D&D has serious magic spells.

Regardless, even though the books treat magic in a science kind of way, the authors would be quick to say 'do what you like and be happy with it.' So, whatever. Teleport into the specific bot you are "thinking of," Even though the only diffrence between that bot and the one in the next hanger is what you see out the sensors. As long as you can be consistent, I won't argue with it.

I will, however, argue that magic is like science.

I'd call it an art. A science would allow you to create the same thing everytime as long as all the same components went into the mix. An art is subject to the user, one of the reasons I consider Psycology and art and not a science at least at its current stage. With magic you could cast the same spell but due to the flux of energy it could be different. For example T-port it has error tables.

[Vrykolas2k]

Has everyone forgot that most CS equipment has hull numbers on them?[/quote]


Most likely have numbers in the cockpit as well. Then again, a crew tends to add "personal touches" also.

[Zer0 Kay]

ok, hull numbers. so if you leave your robot and some kind paints over your 1127 with a 2235, you can't teleport?

It may be a good detriment. However it would still just be negatives on the percent table. I had posted before what if the Blue Prints your using to teleport didn't have the two bucket seats for TO (Technical Order) modification 21 (as in 21 changes since blueprint?) Doom mentioned that, that is what the failure tables are for.

I really like this idea that magic is like art. I debated this with my group and we settled on the same conclusion. I just think in terms of numbers myself. However, if magic is art, then you could only teleport into a robot some of the time. you couldn't use exact numbers to help you find your robot with the spell. With so many robots, you could very well end up in some other guys uar-1 just because he has similar tastes in fuzzy dice. Too much is left up to chance variables. Anyone that like this whole chaos math thing that went around in the 90s would hate the idea of teleoprting into a robot.

Art-you can't always teleport into where ever you want to go (failure table). Yup, however even though art can't be dublicated exactly it can be duplicated (forgery). Your absolutely right. The only vehicle you should be able to teleport into 100% is your own because you know what your fuzzy dice smell like, the crack in the lower left of the window, how the passenger side door sticks and that the large 69 on the side of your vehicle in the runny spray paint covers up with other paint [property of CS].

However, I do see the value in player teleporting into robots. Your villian could setup a fake cockpit and have them teleport into his clutches. Maybe I've been playing to much shadowrun.

Great idea I'll have to use that one.

So, I guess it would be possible to do, but it would also be stupid. You could port your butt into the seat belt buckle, or even the seat intself if it is plush. Pilotsa are really straped down in there. Of course, we are talking about magic users, and they are the ones that think pacts with unknown entities are a good idea. Shifters.

Funny, so since when you meld into something the book says you DIE. Do you die from the seat belt melding to your @$$?

[Zer0 Kay]

Death by belted @S5.

I think I would be one desperate shifter to teleport into my uar-1. Not that magic classes can really pilot them very often. however, if your shifter has enough PPE to cast teleport, why on earth would he be that desperate?

I have also refined my magic is like art to be 'magic is like singing' or at least performance art. Of course, my game group were all a bunch of theatre nerds back in the day.

Or Death by...Shag Carpet?? Yeah I just installed shag carpet in my UAR-1 and some mage tried to teleport in.

So if an explosive device is teleported in and melds with well anything that would normally cause mage death does it become innert?

Why would you have to be desperate? Maybe not UAR-1. More likely a spider skull walker or some other large cockpit multi passenger giant robot. A Macross II Monster II or RT MAC II would be excellent mobile bases.

Refined to "singing" or a performance art is more like broadening into other arts rather than refining it into its own.

[Zer0 Kay]

This has changed the (excuse the pun) tenor of magic in my games. So, one sour note and the whole spell goes to flat(hehe).

OK changed tenor of magic is alright but sour note is too much.

Basicaly, the more exact the required result, the more dificult the action. So teleporting into a space that is most likly not safe could have nasty results. Even your skull walker. You could take plenty of precations to give you the best chance of success, but you could still be instantly killed in your own mech. To me, that sounds desperate. However, as I metioned, Shifters.

Yeah I guess mages are all a little crazy.

[Zer0 Kay]

Duh, all mages are crazy That's why they're so cool.

don't duh me. So are they crazy cool or just cool? No crazy mages are the ones from Call of Cthulu.

[Zer0 Kay]

Yup. Read em all, several times in fact. And not once did I see a place that says you can teleport into a robot, or large vehicle. Where did you read that you could? Comon Doomy. I've given you several quotes from the books. Can't you even give me one little bitty one??

What part of anywhere known by the caster don't you understand?

Second part?? Do you mean "A thing being defined by the rule as people or equipment." Well if this is what you mean then for one thing, I'm not sure what your talking about, and unlike some peaple I don't run off at the mouth just because I've got an opinion. And for two what "rule" are you refering too anyway??

Yep that's it.
It doesn't surprise me since after the "magic cannot penetrate" sentence you stopped reading. Your BoM rule plus the ignored sentences following. Unlike some people I don't stop reading when I see something that seems to support my position without reading the rest of the relevant passage.

Wow does this mean that Doom finally has proven his point and gotten the last word in or has TM just realized he's talking to a brick wall. Maybe TM is on vacation? Maybe Doom has clubed TM into submission after finding out where TM lives? Find out on the next exciting episode of BB Tag!

[Zer0 Kay]

Wow does this mean that Doom finally has proven his point and gotten the last word in or has TM just realized he's talking to a brick wall. Maybe TM is on vacation? Maybe Doom has clubed TM into submission after finding out where TM lives? Find out on the next exciting episode of BB Tag!

Ok will anyone tell me what the bettings odds are .... I lost track, last I heard was 231million for "DOOM" to one for "TM"

Sorry Doom, I know you hate having people agree with you and all but I read the same parts of those books and came to the same conclusion you did.

So does that mean if I bet on a dollar on TM and Doom loses I get 231 million dollars? Dang wish we could get a moderator or someone official to give a rulling...after reading the posts.

[Dr. Doom III]

Ok will anyone tell me what the bettings odds are .... I lost track, last I heard was 231million for "DOOM" to one for "TM"

Sorry Doom, I know you hate having people agree with you and all but I read the same parts of those books and came to the same conclusion you did.

It is directly proportional to how smart someone is to how much they agree with Doom.

[Killer Cyborg]

It is directly proportional to how smart someone is to how much they agree with Doom.

You may have said it, but I believe it even more than you do.

[Dr. Doom III]

You may have said it, but I believe it even more than you do.

That's smart of you.

[Temporalmage]

Wow does this mean that Doom finally has proven his point and gotten the last word in or has TM just realized he's talking to a brick wall. Maybe TM is on vacation? Maybe Doom has clubed TM into submission after finding out where TM lives? Find out on the next exciting episode of BB Tag!

Sorry folks. My apartment burned down a week and a half ago. Started on my niebors balcony. (Doom, where were you on the 13th at 2:30 AM?? Just kidding! ) So obviously I've been without a computer until tonight. Just hooked the darn thing up as a matter of fact. I'll post more when I can. But if I don't let my wife e-mail God and everyone else real soon she'll have my you know what on a platter!! All you married guys know exactly what I mean!

[Vrykolas2k]

Wow does this mean that Doom finally has proven his point and gotten the last word in or has TM just realized he's talking to a brick wall. Maybe TM is on vacation? Maybe Doom has clubed TM into submission after finding out where TM lives? Find out on the next exciting episode of BB Tag!

Sorry folks. My apartment burned down a week and a half ago. Started on my niebors balcony. (Doom, where were you on the 13th at 2:30 AM?? Just kidding! ) So obviously I've been without a computer until tonight. Just hooked the darn thing up as a matter of fact. I'll post more when I can. But if I don't let my wife e-mail God and everyone else real soon she'll have my you know what on a platter!! All you married guys know exactly what I mean!

Ouch.
Yes, let your wife use the comp by all means.
Mine hits me with a cast-iron skillet betimes {petite little Romanian with a temper}.
Sorry about your place, et cetera man...

[Killer Cyborg]

Sorry folks. My apartment burned down a week and a half ago. Started on my niebors balcony. (Doom, where were you on the 13th at 2:30 AM?? Just kidding! ) So obviously I've been without a computer until tonight.

Pfft.
Sure, TM...
You'll do anything to avoid admitting defeat, won't you?

On the other hand, Doom will do anything to win a debate...

Oh well, welcome back.

[Dr. Doom III]

Sorry folks. My apartment burned down a week and a half ago. Started on my niebors balcony. (Doom, where were you on the 13th at 2:30 AM?? Just kidding! )

Doom was and still is recovering from surgery. I believe that was the day Doom had his staples removed.

[Dr. Doom III]

Where were the staples, and where are they now?

They were holding my abdomen together, and then they were in the trash at the hospital and by now in the landfill.

[Temporalmage]

Oops, I was going to post a couple pics of the fire...but havn't figured out how. Anyone know how to do that??

Nevermind...I just read the FAQ about posting images...oh well.

[Dr. Doom III]

I would have kept them. With the powers of Doom's gypsy sorcery, they should be magic items by now from being so close to your belly chakra

I considered asking for the few feet of large intestine they took out in a jar but didn't bother.
I have to much junk cluttering my place up as it is.

[Vrykolas2k]

All the frippery aside, the answer is still yes...

[Temporalmage]

All the frippery aside, the answer is still yes...

I've kinda lost intrest in this argument, what with all the chaos of my life right now....but the answer is still no. According to the information in the books, and with absolutly no cannon material in twenty plus Palladium books to state the contrary...you can not teleport into a robot or giant vehicle.

[Dr. Doom III]

I've kinda lost intrest in this argument, what with all the chaos of my life right now....but the answer is still no. According to the information in the books, and with absolutly no cannon material in twenty plus Palladium books to state the contrary...you can not teleport into a robot or giant vehicle.

Except that you can teleport anywhere known by the mage.

[Temporalmage]

And the disagreement continues.
Just curious but has anyone e-mailed or otherwise conversed with Palladium Staff members about this question to get some sort of official feedback RECENTLY??

[Vrykolas2k]

I've kinda lost intrest in this argument, what with all the chaos of my life right now....but the answer is still no. According to the information in the books, and with absolutly no cannon material in twenty plus Palladium books to state the contrary...you can not teleport into a robot or giant vehicle.

Except that you can teleport anywhere known by the mage.

Exactly. And if the mage owns or is familiar with the 'bot/ vehicle in question, he/ she can telelport there.

[Dr. Doom III]

Hello, death by belted @$$!!! Did you all MISS THAT!!

By the way, what kind of additional modifires are you putting into teleporting into robots? See as you have agreed that magic is like art, so you can't always get the same results.....I am guessing there is more then a 2% chance for belted @$$ death.

No. Wish I had.
None.
Nope.

[Svartalf]

Hello, death by belted @$$!!! Did you all MISS THAT!!

By the way, what kind of additional modifires are you putting into teleporting into robots? See as you have agreed that magic is like art, so you can't always get the same results.....I am guessing there is more then a 2% chance for belted @$$ death.

No. Wish I had.
None.
Nope.

Doom, I'm not sure I fully understand what the noob said... what's that belted booty stuff he spouts about, and why would magic be so artistic as to be impossible to reproduce reliably?

[Dr. Doom III]

Doom, I'm not sure I fully understand what the noob said... what's that belted booty stuff he spouts about, and why would magic be so artistic as to be impossible to reproduce reliably?

Some tangent earlier in the thread about magic being an art and some other foolishness about teleporting and getting the seatbelt imbedded into your backside.

[Temporalmage]

Some tangent earlier in the thread about magic being an art and some other foolishness about teleporting and getting the seatbelt imbedded into your backside.

OOook.....


I think it's an interesting idea that magic is an art form. Science is regarded as an art form in many circles also. But IF for just a moment I believed that one could teleport into a robot or giant vehicle, (which I do not), then the teleporter would only get the seat belt imbedded into them if they rolled really crappy on the teleportation chart. You know....the one that already exists under the spell teleportation!!

[Killer Cyborg]

OOook.....

Well said.

[Vrykolas2k]

I've kinda lost intrest in this argument, what with all the chaos of my life right now....but the answer is still no. According to the information in the books, and with absolutly no cannon material in twenty plus Palladium books to state the contrary...you can not teleport into a robot or giant vehicle.

Except that you can teleport anywhere known by the mage.

Exactly. And if the mage owns or is familiar with the 'bot/ vehicle in question, he/ she can telelport there.

Hello, death by belted @$$!!! Did you all MISS THAT!!

By the way, what kind of additional modifires are you putting into teleporting into robots? See as you have agreed that magic is like art, so you can't always get the same results.....I am guessing there is more then a 2% chance for belted @$$ death.

I use the chances of success as printed in the BOOK!!! Gee, Wally, what a concept.

[Daniel Stoker]

Then why don't you use the ruling for magic not penetrating robots, as printed in the book? Hmmm... seems like you might actually want to read that book.

Because the rules for Teleport supersede those. Take a look at the actual spell.



Daniel Stoker

[Zer0 Kay]

I've kinda lost intrest in this argument, what with all the chaos of my life right now....but the answer is still no. According to the information in the books, and with absolutly no cannon material in twenty plus Palladium books to state the contrary...you can not teleport into a robot or giant vehicle.

Except that you can teleport anywhere known by the mage.

Exactly. And if the mage owns or is familiar with the 'bot/ vehicle in question, he/ she can telelport there.

Hello, death by belted @$$!!! Did you all MISS THAT!!

By the way, what kind of additional modifires are you putting into teleporting into robots? See as you have agreed that magic is like art, so you can't always get the same results.....I am guessing there is more then a 2% chance for belted @$$ death.

Yay I'm quoted again.

[Zer0 Kay]

Hello, death by belted @$$!!! Did you all MISS THAT!!

By the way, what kind of additional modifires are you putting into teleporting into robots? See as you have agreed that magic is like art, so you can't always get the same results.....I am guessing there is more then a 2% chance for belted @$$ death.

No. Wish I had.
None.
Nope.

Doom, I'm not sure I fully understand what the noob said... what's that belted booty stuff he spouts about, and why would magic be so artistic as to be impossible to reproduce reliably?

Not Doom but... The "noob" was commenting on something I had said. When you T-port to a location that has been altered there is a chance you can "meld" with an object and die. It never states how minor or major the changes need to be. If the only change to a DHS was to install a new harness for the seats or changing the interior paint job or adding shag carpet to increase the difficulty to t-port into it then the CS would probably be making modifications all the time. If the change was as simple as adding a seat belt and you failed the roll because of this then you should be killed by the "change" so in this case it would be the belt. Seeing as how it is unlikely you would have forgotten where the seat is you will have teleported into the seat perfectly melding with the belt. The meld causes system shock and kills the character. Silly but...

As far as magic being an art. There are two disciplines science and art. In science all results must be able to be reproduced exactly all the time by any one with the same materials with alterations being able to produce a predictable outcome. Art can be reproduced but requires skill and even then no two pices are never exactly the same (unless produced by a machine). Magic is more like art than science.

[Zer0 Kay]

Doom, I'm not sure I fully understand what the noob said... what's that belted booty stuff he spouts about, and why would magic be so artistic as to be impossible to reproduce reliably?

Some tangent earlier in the thread about magic being an art and some other foolishness about teleporting and getting the seatbelt imbedded into your backside.

It is only foolish if you don't beleive in the success/failure tables that you adamantly adhere too. So by calling such an argument foolish is tatamount to calling yourself such. As far as magic being an art or science show me how it is a... never mind new thread.