This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on...

[Vrykolas2k]

Then why don't you use the ruling for magic not penetrating robots, as printed in the book? Hmmm... seems like you might actually want to read that book.

Because the rules for Teleport supersede those. Take a look at the actual spell.



Daniel Stoker

Precisely.

[Dr. Doom III]

Then why don't you use the ruling for magic not penetrating robots, as printed in the book? Hmmm... seems like you might actually want to read that book.

I do.

I read the entire rule.

[Dr. Doom III]

It is only foolish if you don't beleive in the success/failure tables that you adamantly adhere too. So by calling such an argument foolish is tatamount to calling yourself such. As far as magic being an art or science show me how it is a... never mind new thread.

The foolishness was the talk not the chance of failure.

And I could care less if it science or art. It’s irrelevant.

[Temporalmage]

As far as magic being an art. There are two disciplines science and art. In science all results must be able to be reproduced exactly all the time by any one with the same materials with alterations being able to produce a predictable outcome. Art can be reproduced but requires skill and even then no two pices are never exactly the same (unless produced by a machine). Magic is more like art than science.

I HATE it when peaple go off topic and discuss things that have nothing to do with the original post!!!! So now I hate myself.

I believe it was DaVince that became the Kings personal artist. The King (dont' remember which one) requested that all hopfull applicants submit some form of thier art for consideration. DaVince personally presented himself in front of the King, and with quill and parchment submited his work. He won the competition hands down and became the Kings Artist and creator of weapons of war. What did he do you ask? He drew a perfect circle....freehand. Sound simple? Try it. Then test it with a compass. What is the moral of this little tale you ask? That art and science somtimes blend togeather. And depending on who you ask science is an art, and art is a science.
For the record I also believe as Zero K does, that Magic is more like art than science. The books say its a new science in some places, and art in others, so perhaps the differant writers are also of differant minds.

[Dr. Doom III]

Ok, I must be missing somthing. If I am I can accept that, but when looking in my BOM, the spell lets you teleport to "Anywhere" within 300 miles per lv of the caster. it has a range, just like a bunch of other spells. It also does not need line of sight (for obvious reasons) like many other spells. What makes teleport of diffrent from all the other spells that can't penetrat a robot? Here is a short list of spells that have the same limitations as teleport:
Horrific Illusion, range 30ft
Ice, range 50ft per lv
Disharmonize, 1000ft away
Bottomless Pit, 50ft
Warped Space, 150 ft away, affect 10 ft per lv
Heavy Air, 100 ft per lv
Summon Fog, 10 miles away per lv

None of the spells listed need line of sight. You could cast them into homes, caves, forests, whatever. You could NOT put them in a robot. Why? Because magic can't do that! You can use the spells on the robot, but not inside it.

So here is my bottem line. How is Teleport diffrent from all these spells? What is missing in my BOM that helps it make sense that Teleport is special when compared to all these spells?

In each of those cases the target of the spell would be inside the bot/vehicle. Teleport is different because the spell targets the object/person being teleported.

[Dr. Doom III]

If magic isn't penetrating the skin, what is?

Either the object is penetrating or more likely nothing is since teleport completely bypasses all intervening space including the skin of a bot or vehicle.

[Dr. Doom III]

How do you come to this conclusion? The spell does not say it goes though the skin of a robot. Are you just making stuff up? What can make you think that an object teleporting by use of a spell is in some way NOT MAGIC????

Either the teleport spell is a spell, and there fore magic, or it isn't. If it IS a spell (which it is) then the magic can not go through a robot's skin. It's not that complicated. Now, what reason do you have for this logical jump? To be honest, I was impressed by the last one you made, but I not here to win so much as find the truth, so by all means, shock me again if you've got it.

The magic imparts the "momentum" for lack of a better word.
In effect shooting the object off to where it's going.
Like throwing a rock. You muscles give the rock its momentum and the rock flies through the air but your muscles didn’t affect whatever was hit by the rock. The rock did.
The magic is used up instantly and does not affect anything beyond what is being teleported.
The movement is the result of the magic not the magic.

[Dr. Doom III]

Look at it this way could you teleport into a living thing? In most cases, the armor of a robot takes damage the same as a MDC being would.
Could I be impervious to acid and teleport into a dragons stomach and start hacking it apart from the inside?

ohhh I got to remember that one that is bound to get me some XP to even mention that in a game....but I am sure that any GM would say NO

By the restrictions in the spell descriptions you can't.

[Killer Cyborg]

Look at it this way could you teleport into a living thing? In most cases, the armor of a robot takes damage the same as a MDC being would.

???
Everything takes damage in the same way, living and non-living...

Could I be impervious to acid and teleport into a dragons stomach and start hacking it apart from the inside?

I'd allow it, providing that:
1. You have been inside that particular dragon's stomache before (or have photos of the inside of that particular dragon).
2. You make your standard rolls to determine success.
3. There is enough room for you to be inside the dragon's stomache without stretching his stomache out any.
4. The dragon's stomache is empty enough to accomadate you inside it. Otherwise you'd merge with half-digested deer or whatever and it wouldn't be pleasant.

[Killer Cyborg]

can you dimentsional teleport rift into a large robot if psychics help guide it?

I'd say you could do it without a psychic to guide you.
(also, how would a psychic be able to help guide you anyway?)

and shiesse

What's that?
You swearing in german or something?

a different dimension is better sealed than any power armor or anything but you can get into it via a rift so I say if the object can support a rift inside it ok. or if the power armor is open then yes. and even only then with a madd % roll so they dont tp int fabric.

Dimensional teleportation doesn't usually require a rift to be opened up.

[Dr. Doom III]

There is nothing in that ruling about not being able to cast into or out of something that is enviromental. Please find me a ruling that pertains to the enviromental ruling that seems to have found a niche on this board. I have looked and looked but I have been unable to find anything.

There isn't any.
That's just what people call it.

There obviously isn't anything about magic not being able to breach and environmental seal since EBA and power armor are no defense (except certain spells which are listed in the respective descriptions).

[Traska]

The magic is not, is not, is not, is not penetrating the skin of the robot. The skin is *bypassed entirely*.

Look at it this way. You have a mage teleporting five miles away to a nearby town. Three miles away sits a psi-stalker, *right* in the path between mage and destination. Given that... do you think the psi-stalker detects the teleport? No, because the mage doesn't pass him, he just bypasses the area the stalker's in entirely.

[Dr. Doom III]

The magic is not, is not, is not, is not penetrating the skin of the robot. The skin is *bypassed entirely*.

Look at it this way. You have a mage teleporting five miles away to a nearby town. Three miles away sits a psi-stalker, *right* in the path between mage and destination. Given that... do you think the psi-stalker detects the teleport? No, because the mage doesn't pass him, he just bypasses the area the stalker's in entirely.

Bingo.

[Vrykolas2k]

The magic is not, is not, is not, is not penetrating the skin of the robot. The skin is *bypassed entirely*.

Look at it this way. You have a mage teleporting five miles away to a nearby town. Three miles away sits a psi-stalker, *right* in the path between mage and destination. Given that... do you think the psi-stalker detects the teleport? No, because the mage doesn't pass him, he just bypasses the area the stalker's in entirely.

Bingo.

Yes, please... thank you for playing.
You are so right some people should be sad.

[Vrykolas2k]

I did look at it that way. That is just not how physics work. The energy that my arm uses to throw a rock at a wall is transferred to the rock. MY ENERGY! So the energy that throws the Wizard into his new location is transferred to the wizard. THE SPELLS ENERGY! That just how physics works. If you don't belive me, look it up in a text book. Energy transfers. And if you try to pull any "magic doesn't need physics" crap, this thread will never end.

To look at it another way, what is it that ends the spell? If you are saying magic just ignites the fuse, what controls re-entering reality into the location you want? Magic would need to control both ends of the transaction of teleporting.

That was just a side note I guess. Anyway, Physics, energy, ect.

And what exactly about magic uses physics? Do YOU some-how chant words and vape a town with Fire-balls? I think not...

[Dr. Doom III]

I did look at it that way. That is just not how physics work. The energy that my arm uses to throw a rock at a wall is transferred to the rock. MY ENERGY! So the energy that throws the Wizard into his new location is transferred to the wizard. THE SPELLS ENERGY! That just how physics works. If you don't belive me, look it up in a text book. Energy transfers. And if you try to pull any "magic doesn't need physics" crap, this thread will never end.

To look at it another way, what is it that ends the spell? If you are saying magic just ignites the fuse, what controls re-entering reality into the location you want? Magic would need to control both ends of the transaction of teleporting.

That was just a side note I guess. Anyway, Physics, energy, ect.

Energy is energy.
It is not magic.
Or are you saying energy can't enter bots or vehicles?

[Dr. Doom III]

After reading things over and giving it some thought... Yes you can. Hoever the caster would be going into an area they had never seen before. Even if they'd been in the very robot in question, if others have been in there since him... who knows they may have left a box on the floor in the spot you are trying to appear in. In the case of one man crew robots and power armor, you would need to appear in the exact postion needed to sit inside it...chances of that are 1-5% at best if even 1%

I say try it. Would make for a great player death story

By the book the chances would be 80 or 85 percent.

[Traska]

Teleportation requires two locations.. start location and end location. It requires *nothing* in between those locations.

Teleporting into a sealed vehicle would be like teleporting onto a mountaintop. The walls simply don't exist for teleportation, because the magic doesn't go through the walls. The target (and the magic) cease to exist at one location, and then exist once again at another.

This is NOT like Star Trek. "Shields up!" is meaningless. Shields only work in Star Trek because the technology involved transforms matter into energy, encodes it into a data stream, fires it as a beam (hence, beaming) to its location, and "unzips" the data stream back into matter. With Rifts magic, it's exactly like that. Except for the technology, the energy, the data stream, the beam, and the converting back into matter. Otherwise, it's *exactly* like that. Hence, no blockage.

Now, if it were ruled that no magic could be used *inside* a sealed vehicle, then yes, because the magc spark needed to rematerialize wouldn't be able to exist in it. But a mage in a vehicle can use a globe of daylight spell to read by just fine.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm getting a bit tired of silly ideas regarding teleportation safety.
When you teleport into an area, any small objects are moved out of your way when you materialize. For teleporting into an enclosed area, your body is arranged to fit within the space.

Where do I get off saying this?
Because otherwise the percentages of teleporting into an object would be way too high; much, much higher than they are in the book.

As I pointed out before, a mage who teleports into an empty room doesn't suddenly find his body full of extra air molecules. That would likely kill him; bubbles in the bloodstream, etc.
Obviously the mage's arrival pushes the air apart to make room for him.

Let's say that there are a couple of flies buzzing around that room.
Would the spell push one something with the mass of an insect out of the way to make room for the mage?
Yes.
We know this because the spell description makes no mention of difficulty teleporting into the same space as insects. No mention of any difficulty teleporting into an area filled with an insect swarm.
Or, for that matter, a dust storm, a sandstorm, smoke, fog, confetti, leaves blowing in the wind, or any other small objects.

What about small objects like seat belts?
Same thing.
No place stays exactly the same as you left it. Little things change all the time. Say you want to teleport into your living room, but your cat happens to be standing right where you want to arrive. He wasn't there last time you looked, but he's there now.
Big deal.
The only way to avoid such encounters would be to only teleport into completely locked and vacuum-sealed rooms.
There is no mention at all of a mage needing any such precautions.

There is also a built in safety feature that keeps the mage from teleporting into larger objects. Say you wanted to teleport into your living room, but there's a party going on.
Nothing in the spell indicates that you have any danger of teleporting into the space occupied by one of the guests.
If it was a possibility, then the spell would certainly mention it.
For the most part, the spell would make sure that you are in your living room, but also that you arrive in an unoccupied space.

Same goes with teleporting into a small cockpit.
The basic safety measures would make sure that you arrived in an unoccupied space; which would mean the only space available- the seat.

[Killer Cyborg]

We all agree a Teleport can take you anywhere, but weather a robot is a WHERE or a WHAT will always be a problem.

I don't see how it's a problem.
As I have said, many places are also things and vice versa.

Or, if it helps to put it a different way:

A Robot is a thing, so you can't teleport into one.
The empty space inside of the robot is a place, so you can clearly teleport there.

[Temporalmage]

For me its taking into consideration that Palladium, for whatever reason, has made it abundantly clear that thier magic system is defeated by robots and power armor. More so with robots and giant vehicles, but even power armor poses a problem with magic users and psycics. It blocks most spells and nearly all psyonics. Of course there are exceptions, like spells or psycic powers that are clearly designed to bypass those obsticals. But in every example of an exception the books have taken great pains to clearly state weither the spell or psycic power can bypass the robot or vehicle. Since the number of spells and powers that CAN bypass robots is so small in comparison to those that cannot, the only solution is that only those spells or powers that specifically state they can bypass the robot, or effect the occupants, should be allowed to do so. The argument against this, as presented by Doom and his followers, is that the spell teleport clearly states that it instantly teleports the caster to "any" place he knows within range of the spell. The key word they hang thier argument on is the word ANYPLACE. Obviously arguing about the word "place" is just arguing sementics and is going to get us no where. Doom and his followers seem to forget the the wording of the spell is a simple cut and paste from other palladium games that did not have robots or power armor to consider, and that the ruling that no magic could penetrate a robot did not come out untill the first source book, and then latter in the Book of Magic. I do wonder for a moment why the spell teleport wasn't re-written to state it could teleport a person into a robot, at least in the book of magic where the rule that says magic can't penetrate a robot is clearly written....but wait. I know why they never re-wrote the spell. It's because it can not be done. I know that Doom and his followers will say that it's a typo, or was overlooked. But it's not in the Errata either. Where it obviously would be placed, next to the rest of the oversights. But it's not there.
Another small point I'd like to make. The rule in the Book of Magic states that no spell can penetrate a robot of giant vehicle. Doom and his followers argue that teleport does not really "penetrate". Once again arguing the sementics of wording. What Doom and his followers once again seem to forget is that this game system is aimed at a broad spectrum of peaple from all walks of life. Using the easiest verbage to get your point across is the best way to reach the broadest group of peaple. Not just all you rocket scientists and chemists and other learned peaple... but the ditch diggers, hamburger flippers, and trash collectors also. So go ahead and argue the "true" meaning of a couple of words if you want to. Argue the semantics of a verb, even if it's just to save face because "thats how I've always played it." Refuse to believe what is clearly written in a language that most of us consider our native tounge if that's what floats your boat. But it won't change what IS written one little bit.
A mage or supernatural creature can not teleport into a robot or giant vehicle. Because magic is blocked by these things. Argue it if you want. Play it how you like. But cannon material states it can't be done.


One more little thing. I've been asking Doom, and all his little clones, to please give me one single page number in one Palladium Products book that say's you CAN teleport into a robot. Even if its just fluff and flavor text. And so far none of you have done it. Yet you still sit in your stuffed shirt with a holyer than thou attitude condesending at me that you can teleport into a robot. With not one peice of evidence to back you up. How pathetic.

[Traska]

Simple. Show where it says you *can't*, specifically. It doesn't say specifically either way. If it *did*, this would be a one page thread. And by the way, using derogatory terminology (all his little clones) to describe the opponents of your viewpoint? Bad debate form. Bad, no biscuit for you!

One to transporting or discplacing. I again pose the question to you: could the psi-stalker in my above example detect the teleporting mage if he were smack dab on the line of 'port? If so, then it's transporting. If not, it's displacing. If it is just transporting, though, then teleport is a far weaker spell than anyone's been led to believe. You can't 'port into/out of a room with no open doors or windows, you can't 'port from within a normal SDC vehicle (say, a Pre-Rifts VW Beetle), you can't port from within a cavern system (that screws up a lot of Palladium Fantasy players, I'm sure). In fact, if it is just transporting, you'd need direct line of sight, or you'd splat against any walls in the way at very high speed (because it's transporting you instantaneously... to instantaneously cover miles, you've got to be going *really* fast...)

You'd think that many limitations would cause a rewording of "any place".

[Killer Cyborg]

But it's not in the Errata either. Where it obviously would be placed, next to the rest of the oversights. But it's not there.

Um, do you truly believe that all of Palladium's oversights are mentioned in the Errata?
If so, then you're not living in the same world as the rest of us.
If not, then your point here is moot.

Another small point I'd like to make. The rule in the Book of Magic states that no spell can penetrate a robot of giant vehicle.

Actually, that's not what it says.
What it says is that magic cannot penetrate the skin of vehicles.
Which is false.

Doom and his followers...

BTW, I resent that.
I follow no man.
Unless he's wearing one of my "Official Cannon Fodder" T-Shirts.
Doom has, for unknown reasons, refused to accept one of these.

...argue that teleport does not really "penetrate". Once again arguing the sementics of wording. What Doom and his followers once again seem to forget is that this game system is aimed at a broad spectrum of peaple from all walks of life. Using the easiest verbage to get your point across is the best way to reach the broadest group of peaple. Not just all you rocket scientists and chemists and other learned peaple... but the ditch diggers, hamburger flippers, and trash collectors also. So go ahead and argue the "true" meaning of a couple of words if you want to. Argue the semantics of a verb, even if it's just to save face because "thats how I've always played it." Refuse to believe what is clearly written in a language that most of us consider our native tounge if that's what floats your boat. But it won't change what IS written one little bit.

Great argument.
Unfortunately, like a LOT of Palladium's rules, the wording leaves a LOT open to interpretation.
If you're unwilling to accept that there are other legitimate interpretations other than your own, there's not much I can do to change your position.
But that doesn't make you right, only stubborn.

[Temporalmage]

Simple. Show where it says you *can't*, specifically.

You should have asked for something harder. Page 21 of the Book of Magic. Spells it out for anyone who wishes to read it, not argue semantics like other peaple on these boards. (Not you specifically, just a generalization.)

And by the way, using derogatory terminology (all his little clones) to describe the opponents of your viewpoint? Bad debate form. Bad, no biscuit for you!

This stems from before you began posting on this specific debate. There are those that seems to think Doom should be president. There are many others that just like to re-post Doom's arguments almost verbatim. No biscut for me?

The rest of Traska's post is once again rehashing old material. Not Traska's fault really. After all in 40++ pages of debate there really isn't much that hasn't been said.
Traska, I'll answer your post with this..... The books never mention any problems with teleporting into/out of a cavern, VW bug, closed room, etc. But the books does say there is a distinct problem with casting a spell outside of a vehicle or robot, when the spell is going to effect anything on the inside of said vehicle or robot. That's where this argument came from.

[Temporalmage]

But it's not in the Errata either. Where it obviously would be placed, next to the rest of the oversights. But it's not there.

Um, do you truly believe that all of Palladium's oversights are mentioned in the Errata?
If so, then you're not living in the same world as the rest of us.
If not, then your point here is moot.

Killer, I know your smart. This was obviously me being facetious and you know it. So why did you bother to bring it up?

Another small point I'd like to make. The rule in the Book of Magic states that no spell can penetrate a robot of giant vehicle.

Actually, that's not what it says.
What it says is that magic cannot penetrate the skin of vehicles.
Which is false.

So your saying that a rule, written in one of the books, clearly written in english, in a section dedicated to clearing up the rules, is false?? It's a rule Killer, and like all rules there can be exceptions, but it's still one of the rules!!!

Doom and his followers...

BTW, I resent that.
I follow no man.
Unless he's wearing one of my "Official Cannon Fodder" T-Shirts.
Doom has, for unknown reasons, refused to accept one of these.

Hey Doom, your followers are revolting!! Attica..Attica...Attica!!
By the way...when I said your followers are revolting..that could be taken a couple differant ways!!
Oh and Killer...................chill out. You and I've argued enough to know that if I wanted to say something specific towards you, or anyone else for that matter, I'd jump right out and say it.

...argue that teleport does not really "penetrate". Once again arguing the sementics of wording. What Doom and his followers once again seem to forget is that this game system is aimed at a broad spectrum of peaple from all walks of life. Using the easiest verbage to get your point across is the best way to reach the broadest group of peaple. Not just all you rocket scientists and chemists and other learned peaple... but the ditch diggers, hamburger flippers, and trash collectors also. So go ahead and argue the "true" meaning of a couple of words if you want to. Argue the semantics of a verb, even if it's just to save face because "thats how I've always played it." Refuse to believe what is clearly written in a language that most of us consider our native tounge if that's what floats your boat. But it won't change what IS written one little bit.

Great argument.
Unfortunately, like a LOT of Palladium's rules, the wording leaves a LOT open to interpretation.
If you're unwilling to accept that there are other legitimate interpretations other than your own, there's not much I can do to change your position.
But that doesn't make you right, only stubborn.

Yup, I'm stubborn. But in this case I'm not only stubborn, I'm right! Thanks for the complement by the way.

[Traska]

Page 21 of the Book of Magic.

Really? My copy mentions *nothing* about teleport not being able to. Just as I'm sure your copy mentions nothing about teleporting specifically into a robot vehicle. Funny how those grey areas refuse to go black *or* white, ain't it?

[Dr. Doom III]

One more little thing. I've been asking Doom, and all his little clones, to please give me one single page number in one Palladium Products book that say's you CAN teleport into a robot. Even if its just fluff and flavor text. And so far none of you have done it. Yet you still sit in your stuffed shirt with a holyer than thou attitude condesending at me that you can teleport into a robot. With not one peice of evidence to back you up. How pathetic.

Can you give one that specifically says you can't?

[Killer Cyborg]

I happen to notice some one saying that you body forms to the area you are teleporting to and objects get moved out of the way...
Teleport superior spells discription clearly says if you botch your roll and appear in an object it is an instant death
and like I said...in the case of power armor the chances of you and your clothing all being perfectly situated to successfuly would be nearly non-existant

As a favor to me, before you respond to one of my posts in the future, please:
1. Read the whole post.
2. Think about things a bit.

Thank you for your support.

[Killer Cyborg]

So your saying that a rule, written in one of the books, clearly written in english, in a section dedicated to clearing up the rules, is false?? It's a rule Killer, and like all rules there can be exceptions, but it's still one of the rules!!!

Like the rule on p. 18 of the BoM, where it says;
"Covering oneself in metal or man-made materials, including plastic and ceramic plates, has the strange effect of hampering the channeling of magic energy"
It's an official rule, therefore true?

What about 3 pages later (p. 21) where it says:
"Mega-Damage ceramid and plastic is also suitable for use by spell casters."
Is that also true?

(Fun Fact: Kirk used these two examples to blow up hostile robots once, because they believed everything they read.)

[Killer Cyborg]

I've been double-posting a LOT lately without meaning to.
Weird.

[Vrykolas2k]

I don't see any Doom clones.

[Temporalmage]

Page 21 of the Book of Magic.

Really? My copy mentions *nothing* about teleport not being able to. Just as I'm sure your copy mentions nothing about teleporting specifically into a robot vehicle. Funny how those grey areas refuse to go black *or* white, ain't it?

Gee, it says that magic (which all forms of teleport are by the way) can not penetrate robots or giant vehicles. No spell cast on the inside of such vehicles can get out. (So no teleporting out) And no spell cast on the outside can get in. (So no teleporting in). Yup, seems pretty black and white to me.

Temporal Mage, instead of whining about followers/clones (which we aren't, having disagreed with Doom on other issues), come up with some things like this.

As for penetrating, the only way to penetrate a physical object is to pass through it physically. Teleport doesn't go anywhere physically but it's destination.

Seems that some of you got your britches in a bunch when I refered to some peaple on this board as Doom's followers. Or Doom's clones. Well if ya took offense at what I said I got one question for ya. Why ya being so defensive if your NOT????
A ghost penetrates a wall. Is a ghost physical? No. Peaple on the astral plane can pass through walls. Are they physical? No. How about someone that cast 4-D transformation on themselves and are then able to step out of the 3rd dimension? Are they still physical?? No. Your arguement holds no water.

It's irrelevent if teleport "penetrates", Passes through the vehicle walls, or just pops the mage inside the vehicle. The spell is cast on the outside of the vehicle and according to the rule the mage could not end up inside, except for the rare possibility that he mis-teleported, and the GM was being nice. Unless you play your game differant than cannon material.

[Temporalmage]

So your saying that a rule, written in one of the books, clearly written in english, in a section dedicated to clearing up the rules, is false?? It's a rule Killer, and like all rules there can be exceptions, but it's still one of the rules!!!

Like the rule on p. 18 of the BoM, where it says;
"Covering oneself in metal or man-made materials, including plastic and ceramic plates, has the strange effect of hampering the channeling of magic energy"
It's an official rule, therefore true?

What about 3 pages later (p. 21) where it says:
"Mega-Damage ceramid and plastic is also suitable for use by spell casters."
Is that also true?

(Fun Fact: Kirk used these two examples to blow up hostile robots once, because they believed everything they read.)

Ya know I've never used those rules. I personally think it's BS designed to limit mages, when mages are already penelized by how long it takes to cast spells. As I've never used em I've never really studyed that specific subject so I don't have an answer about armor and mages. But you do have a point and I'll address it right now.

A loaded gun can take a life.
a Loaded gun can save a life.
Both statements can be correct. Both statements can be wrong. Both statements contradict each other.

[Temporalmage]

One more little thing. I've been asking Doom, and all his little clones, to please give me one single page number in one Palladium Products book that say's you CAN teleport into a robot. Even if its just fluff and flavor text. And so far none of you have done it. Yet you still sit in your stuffed shirt with a holyer than thou attitude condesending at me that you can teleport into a robot. With not one peice of evidence to back you up. How pathetic.

Can you give one that specifically says you can't?

Ya know, here's somthing I've never tried yet. Lets take the words spell or magic, and replace it with teleport. Then I'll just re-post the whole rule from the BOM in question and we'll both see how it looks.

Teleport can not penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles. Any teleport cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot. Likewise any teleport directed at vehicles/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside.

The spell teleport does not in any way shape or form ever even hint that it is one of the very few spells that are exceptions. At no time is there ever any mention that someone could teleport into a robot. Your argument has never been backed up by any cannon material in any way. Your only semi-logical argument that you have is trying to disect the word "penetrate". Which basicly means no magic can get into the robot. Or you argue that teleport say's "anyplace". Yet you never seem to grasp that the teleport spell was first written in a book a decade before this rule came out. The spell teleport states that the mage arrives at the "target" destination, and when I point out that the above rule says that no spell directed at a robot can get in....you say it's just flavor text. Your very dismissive of any book statement that contradicts you by the way. At no time does any of the teleport spells say that they can teleport a mage into a robot, nor does any of the flavor text in any of the books give even a hint that such a thing could be done. I'd especially have thought that it would be a no-brainer for one of the 6 Tolkeen books to have mentioned, but of course it would only have been mentioned if it was possible. Once again Doom I'm going to blatently accuse you of arguing for two reasons: One is that you obviously hate to lose face and lose an argument. And two is that your only defending how you've always played it. If you have any thing more than a one sentence response I'll be happy to continue this discussion. But that just does not seem to be your style, does it?

[Dr. Doom III]

Ya know, here's somthing I've never tried yet. Lets take the words spell or magic, and replace it with teleport. Then I'll just re-post the whole rule from the BOM in question and we'll both see how it looks.

I know how it looks.
You can't.


*Edit*
That's two sentences.

[Temporalmage]

Ya know, here's somthing I've never tried yet. Lets take the words spell or magic, and replace it with teleport. Then I'll just re-post the whole rule from the BOM in question and we'll both see how it looks.

I know how it looks.
You can't.


*Edit*
That's two sentences.

Can't what?? Spell it out Doomy. Trying to talk to you is like pulling freaking teath!!

And thanks for the six words.

EDIT: Doom is a sneaky devil, and I misunderstood him. He should have written more than 6 words!!!

[Killer Cyborg]

So your saying that a rule, written in one of the books, clearly written in english, in a section dedicated to clearing up the rules, is false?? It's a rule Killer, and like all rules there can be exceptions, but it's still one of the rules!!!

Like the rule on p. 18 of the BoM, where it says;
"Covering oneself in metal or man-made materials, including plastic and ceramic plates, has the strange effect of hampering the channeling of magic energy"
It's an official rule, therefore true?

What about 3 pages later (p. 21) where it says:
"Mega-Damage ceramid and plastic is also suitable for use by spell casters."
Is that also true?

(Fun Fact: Kirk used these two examples to blow up hostile robots once, because they believed everything they read.)

Ya know I've never used those rules. I personally think it's BS designed to limit mages, when mages are already penelized by how long it takes to cast spells. As I've never used em I've never really studyed that specific subject so I don't have an answer about armor and mages. But you do have a point and I'll address it right now.

A loaded gun can take a life.
a Loaded gun can save a life.
Both statements can be correct. Both statements can be wrong. Both statements contradict each other.

Actually, saying that a gun can save a life doesn't contradict the statement that it can end a life.

[Killer Cyborg]

The spell teleport does not in any way shape or form ever even hint that it is one of the very few spells that are exceptions.

The very nature of the spell makes it clear that it is an exception.

Try to look at it logically:
Why couldn't you teleport into a vehicle?
The only reason is your much quoted "magic cannot penetrate the skin of a vehicle".

I'll ask you this:
Why can't magic penetrate the skin of a vehicle?
Give me a logical, in-game reason... not just "because the rules say so"

[Traska]

Y'know, it's funny. The copy I have words it like this:

"Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot. Likewise, any spell directed at vehicles/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside."

Given that... it says nothing about being able to teleport inside a vehicle or robot, and never even *implies* it.

In fact, it even hints that you *can* teleport from inside to outside. "Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot." If a mage is held within the vehicle (an occupant) and he casts teleport, what exactly is affected? The robot? Not in the slightest. Teleport traverses point A to point B with nothing intervening along the way. The spell affects the caster. An occupant of the vehicle. How does the terminus point affect the vehicle at all? It doesn't, unless the terminus point were a part of the vehicle. (The airspace within a vehicle is not part of the vehicle, as that airspace is altered everytime a door or window opens).

Reverse the transaction. A mage outside teleports inside. "Likewise, any spell directed at vehicles/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside." The spell isn't being directed at the robot at all. It's being directed at the mage. The magic again doesn't affect the robot in the slightest, and it's not a part of the robot that the mage is teleporting to... it's once again the airspace within the robot.

The game does counter nicely for this by requiring the mage to have been at the location... not merely a location like it. That particular robot, not merely a UAR-1. It's an attuning thing.

You say it looks black and white to you. I submit you've failed to look for the shades of grey. The evidence seems at best, neutral, and at worst, like it supports the pro-teleportation argument.

[Dr. Doom III]

Can't what?? Spell it out Doomy. Trying to talk to you is like pulling freaking teath!!

And thanks for the six words.

EDIT: It would appear that Doom has finally admited defeat. Note the word appear folks!! Anyone that knows Doomy knows he's a sneaky devil!!

Man you have a short attention span.

I guess it would help if you looked at the last post you made and read my question you quoted.
Here's a hint.
It's the one you can't answer.

Four sentences.

[Dr. Doom III]

The very nature of the spell makes it clear that it is an exception.

Try to look at it logically:
Why couldn't you teleport into a vehicle?
The only reason is your much quoted "magic cannot penetrate the skin of a vehicle".

I'll ask you this:
Why can't magic penetrate the skin of a vehicle?
Give me a logical, in-game reason... not just "because the rules say so"

I believe Doom is the only one who has any answer to that question.
Line of Vision.
Which of course has no impact on teleportation.

[Vrykolas2k]

So in other words, it's like I said in a post long ago... all whining frippery aside, the answer is still YES. You can teleport to and from the innards of a bot or vehicle. This is Magic 101, not Physics 101. So if I cast Circle of Travel for instance, and one circle is inside my APC, the other can be anywhere and I can go back and forth at will. If the APC has Sanctuary and Circle of Protection, when I Dimensional Teleport from Phase World, that APC is where I end up. And since I am so familiar with that vehicle... well, Teleport: Superior will get me there, and I can Teleport: Lesser that darn Scepter of Command I forgot from within it as well.

[Temporalmage]

The spell teleport does not in any way shape or form ever even hint that it is one of the very few spells that are exceptions.

The very nature of the spell makes it clear that it is an exception.

Try to look at it logically:
Why couldn't you teleport into a vehicle?
The only reason is your much quoted "magic cannot penetrate the skin of a vehicle".

I'll ask you this:
Why can't magic penetrate the skin of a vehicle?
Give me a logical, in-game reason... not just "because the rules say so"

It's on page 21 of the Book of Magic. It seems to me that someone at Palladium has it in for mages. I personally don't agree with it, but the rule is still there. Metal has adverse effects on spell casting. If you read the entire page the topic actually starts with the question "Are there any spell casting penalties when wearing armor?" Then it continues with the question "What about power armor, or vehicles/giant robots?" The answer to the first question is given by Palladium as a problem with metal, man made metal alloys, or compound armor with a lot of metal. This makes it difficult to cast spells while covered in such stuff. Under the second question it tells us that power armor has even more penelties and another roll on the table under question one to determine if the spell even goes off, or how messed up it is when it's cast. But it continues to tell us that magic can not penetrate a robot or vehicle. Not from the inside-out, nor from the outside-in.

If a mage has to spend over 20% more PPE to cast a teleport spell while inside of metal armor, how could that same mage be able to cast a spell while inside a robot with tons more of it?? This is why you can't teleport into a robot or vehicle. By the cannon rules. It has absolutly nothing to do with the word "anywhere", nor line of sight, nor anything else. Just the fact that metal seems to stop magic. Not my idea, nor my rule....it's Palladiums.

[Temporalmage]

The very nature of the spell makes it clear that it is an exception.

Try to look at it logically:
Why couldn't you teleport into a vehicle?
The only reason is your much quoted "magic cannot penetrate the skin of a vehicle".

I'll ask you this:
Why can't magic penetrate the skin of a vehicle?
Give me a logical, in-game reason... not just "because the rules say so"

I believe Doom is the only one who has any answer to that question.
Line of Vision.
Which of course has no impact on teleportation.

I believe Doom is wrong. Again. See my above post.

[Killer Cyborg]

The spell teleport does not in any way shape or form ever even hint that it is one of the very few spells that are exceptions.

The very nature of the spell makes it clear that it is an exception.

Try to look at it logically:
Why couldn't you teleport into a vehicle?
The only reason is your much quoted "magic cannot penetrate the skin of a vehicle".

I'll ask you this:
Why can't magic penetrate the skin of a vehicle?
Give me a logical, in-game reason... not just "because the rules say so"

It's on page 21 of the Book of Magic. It seems to me that someone at Palladium has it in for mages. I personally don't agree with it, but the rule is still there. Metal has adverse effects on spell casting. If you read the entire page the topic actually starts with the question "Are there any spell casting penalties when wearing armor?" Then it continues with the question "What about power armor, or vehicles/giant robots?" The answer to the first question is given by Palladium as a problem with metal, man made metal alloys, or compound armor with a lot of metal. This makes it difficult to cast spells while covered in such stuff. Under the second question it tells us that power armor has even more penelties and another roll on the table under question one to determine if the spell even goes off, or how messed up it is when it's cast. But it continues to tell us that magic can not penetrate a robot or vehicle. Not from the inside-out, nor from the outside-in.

If a mage has to spend over 20% more PPE to cast a teleport spell while inside of metal armor, how could that same mage be able to cast a spell while inside a robot with tons more of it?? This is why you can't teleport into a robot or vehicle. By the cannon rules. It has absolutly nothing to do with the word "anywhere", nor line of sight, nor anything else. Just the fact that metal seems to stop magic. Not my idea, nor my rule....it's Palladiums.

Most of that post seems to be a long-winded way of saying, yet again, "Because the rules say so!"

Other than that, it seems that you think it has to do with metal.
So, do you think that it would be legal for a mage inside a non-metal vehical (a conastoga wagon, for example) to cast spells outside of it? Or for a mage on the outside to cast spells at the people inside?

[Traska]

I disagree with it solely being about metal or, again, there'd be a disclaimer about not being able to teleport through metal.

With power armor, the mage is confined. S/he doesn't get the same range of motions as usual, and PPE cannot flow around the mage as normal. In a robot or vehicle (where there's more space), it can.

If it's all about the metal, then how come a mage inside a vehicle can cast spells at all? The entry on Page 21 *clearly* states that spells can be cast while in a vehicle, it just won't affect anything outside of it.

[Dr. Doom III]

I believe Doom is wrong. Again. See my above post.

But you haven't been anything but wrong in this thread anyway.

[Dr. Doom III]

Most of that post seems to be a long-winded way of saying, yet again, "Because the rules say so!"

Other than that, it seems that you think it has to do with metal.
So, do you think that it would be legal for a mage inside a non-metal vehical (a conastoga wagon, for example) to cast spells outside of it? Or for a mage on the outside to cast spells at the people inside?

Or the fact that Power Armor has no adverse affect.

[Zer0 Kay]

Most of that post seems to be a long-winded way of saying, yet again, "Because the rules say so!"

Other than that, it seems that you think it has to do with metal.
So, do you think that it would be legal for a mage inside a non-metal vehical (a conastoga wagon, for example) to cast spells outside of it? Or for a mage on the outside to cast spells at the people inside?

Don't forget that would mean that mages could use the Plastic Man armor then.

[Zer0 Kay]

damn should have left well enough alone and ended 2 no three posts back at 666 replies. Just because that would have been...odd.