This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on...

[Temporalmage]

What I'm saying is simple: Mages can't take Pilot: Robot/Power armor. (At least most magic OCC's can't), nor are they allowed mechanical or electrical skills that would give them familiarity with those types of vehicles.

Now you're just being facetious.
It's familiarity with the space not the operation of the vehicle.

Nah, not facetious. Just have a solid opinion on mages is all. When you have the power of the mega-verse at your fingertips...when you can fly, turn into a tiger, teleport, move objects with your mind, summon fire from your hands, and a host of other abilities.... why bother with a mundane clunky loud hunk of steel that would only slow you down and block off those same abilities I've previously described? I kinda look at it like somone that spent 10 years of thier life learning how to be a brain surgon and then decides to make a carear out of working at McDonalds. Just makes zero sense to me. (Unless they happen to be a Techno-wizard of course!!)

[Temporalmage]

What exactly is the rule on p. 19?

It's been presented before, but here goes again, bold text is mine for empasis:

Trying to cast magic from inside a vehicle or giant robot is impossible, causing the magical effect/damage to strike those inside the vehicle (can not penetrate the walls of the vehicle; even novice students of magic are taught this). As a result, the spell caster must at least open a window or hatch, and stick his head and upper body out (a nice target for snipers) to weave his magic. Many spells also require line of sight to strike a specific target; the spell caster must be able to see his quarry.

Dang fortunately the magical effect/damage is striking those inside it is teleporting them outside. Now that I see the scripture it is clear that the rule was meant for those idiots who try to cast direct fire or touch spells from the inside of a robot at people outside.

Or those that try to teleport into robots or vehicles!

[RainOfSteel]

. . . why don't you read the spell Mystic Portal? Mystic Portal is cast on the OUTSIDE of the robot/vehicle, and effects the robot/vehicle itself. EXCATLY LIKE THE BOM ALLOWS!!

Well, except that I think the BoM doesn't, but anyway, to continue on for the sake of the discussion . . .

A) Mystic Portal creates a portal 10' W x 20' H, I bet that's not going to be able to exit into most GRs or Vs. Not to mention having certain problems based on C, below.

B) When not operating in pass-through mode, it only works to locations known to the caster. Not seen in a picture, not studied somewhere, not imagined, but known. This is pretty restrictive against offensive use. If you're MPing to your own vehicle, then I guess it would work, if the vehicle has a space 10' x 20' to receive the portal (otherwise the edges of the portal would be interpenetrating the skin of the V, and that would go against BoM p.19/21).

C) May be cast on a vertical floor, wall, or ceiling. Good luck finding that 10' x 20' surface right when you need it most.

The spell would work by making a portal on the side of the robot/vehicle and allowing the mage to enter. It is after all a dimensional rift in the fabric of space.

And as I've pointed out, MDC (which I doggedly assert is what the type of GR or V the BoM p.19 & p.21 rulings are talking about; even though I also acknowledge that it's "just my house-rule"), is balonium, and defends multi-dimensionally, and it does so because of the phrase "magic can't" and the generic catch-all use of "penetrate" in this particular context to cover all possible methods.

A normal teleport would not work for all the reasons you've already stated.

I'll have to apologize and state that, as far as the logic of "magic" goes, I can't really tell the difference between the mechanism of magical power behind Teleport: Superior and Mystic Portal. They both seem like multi-dimensional spells to me. If Teleport: Superior (a multi-dimensional spell) won't work, then neither will Mystic Portal (also a multi-dimensional spell), and that doesn't even count the other reasons I went over above.

But otherwise, I'm happy that we at least see partially eye to eye (or maybe that's left eye to right eye, and the reverse? We see cross-eye to cross eye? ).

By the way, my original post was simply to answer the question of this topic. It's odd that many posters here are simply refusing to remember the original question, instead choosing to ramble and argue about semantics that are not a part of the original question. Kinda like not seeing the forest for all the trees.
end rant

Oh, I remember. The original post invites open discussion on the subject.

Can one teleport into an environmentally sealed vehicle?

Please site rules or logic for allowing or disallowing the capability. For history on this topic please look into the "Plausable Cause" thread tword the last few pages for the ongoing debate which will hopefully tranfer here.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

dam rule lawyers

[Zer0 Kay]

What exactly is the rule on p. 19?

It's been presented before, but here goes again, bold text is mine for empasis:

Trying to cast magic from inside a vehicle or giant robot is impossible, causing the magical effect/damage to strike those inside the vehicle (can not penetrate the walls of the vehicle; even novice students of magic are taught this). As a result, the spell caster must at least open a window or hatch, and stick his head and upper body out (a nice target for snipers) to weave his magic. Many spells also require line of sight to strike a specific target; the spell caster must be able to see his quarry.

Dang fortunately the magical effect/damage is striking those inside it is teleporting them outside. Now that I see the scripture it is clear that the rule was meant for those idiots who try to cast direct fire or touch spells from the inside of a robot at people outside.

Or those that try to teleport into robots or vehicles!

How is this funny to you. It still says that T-port can be done because it still targets/effects the people on one side of the "skinn" and moves them to the other. The location is only a target in the persons mind so unless the skinn is able to cause amnesia in the person they can still teleport. I dought a mage in a giant robot would suddenly forget what his home looked like.

[Zer0 Kay]

dam rule lawyers

Case closed your not a rules lawyer

[Zer0 Kay]

I have Negative Geek points, I am dorky.

and 255 is the traditional number of items maxed in alot of RPG's

Wow I've never noticed.

[Zer0 Kay]

What I'm saying is simple: Mages can't take Pilot: Robot/Power armor. (At least most magic OCC's can't), nor are they allowed mechanical or electrical skills that would give them familiarity with those types of vehicles.

Now you're just being facetious.
It's familiarity with the space not the operation of the vehicle.

Nah, not facetious. Just have a solid opinion on mages is all. When you have the power of the mega-verse at your fingertips...when you can fly, turn into a tiger, teleport, move objects with your mind, summon fire from your hands, and a host of other abilities.... why bother with a mundane clunky loud hunk of steel that would only slow you down and block off those same abilities I've previously described? I kinda look at it like somone that spent 10 years of thier life learning how to be a brain surgon and then decides to make a carear out of working at McDonalds. Just makes zero sense to me. (Unless they happen to be a Techno-wizard of course!!)

Well when that brain surgeon gets too many malpractice suits that's what he's going to do.

It is called survival. Even better if it is one of the really big vehicles it simply acts as a mobile mage tower. Why does a mage have a tower...oh yeah protection. So they can fly you can walk, why don't you always walk instead of driving? If you know how to pilot a plane why do you own a car?

[Dr. Doom III]

Nah, not facetious. Just have a solid opinion on mages is all. When you have the power of the mega-verse at your fingertips...when you can fly, turn into a tiger, teleport, move objects with your mind, summon fire from your hands, and a host of other abilities.... why bother with a mundane clunky loud hunk of steel that would only slow you down and block off those same abilities I've previously described? I kinda look at it like somone that spent 10 years of thier life learning how to be a brain surgon and then decides to make a carear out of working at McDonalds. Just makes zero sense to me. (Unless they happen to be a Techno-wizard of course!!)

So?
It's irrelevant.

[Killer Cyborg]

Nah, not facetious. Just have a solid opinion on mages is all. When you have the power of the mega-verse at your fingertips...when you can fly, turn into a tiger, teleport, move objects with your mind, summon fire from your hands, and a host of other abilities.... why bother with a mundane clunky loud hunk of steel that would only slow you down and block off those same abilities I've previously described? I kinda look at it like somone that spent 10 years of thier life learning how to be a brain surgon and then decides to make a carear out of working at McDonalds. Just makes zero sense to me. (Unless they happen to be a Techno-wizard of course!!)

You have a solid opinion on mages, but it's not backed up by anything in the books. Your view is completely inconsistant with the way that mages are presented in the official material.
Comparing piloting a vehicle to working at mcdonalds is absurd.
How long does Fly as The Eagle last? 20 minutes per level.
How long can a stole Deaths Head Transport fly? 20 hours.
Now compare cargo capacity and rethink things a bit.

And "Slow you down"!?
How fast can a tiger run? Not as fast as the 50 MPH that Fly as the Eagle can go, but that's still slower than the infamously slow Glitterboy can run.
Yes, Teleport Superior is faster, but you seriously expect mages to rely on this? It's a FIFTEENTH LEVEL SPELL!! Very few mages would even have it, and those who did might rather just take a drive into town and back than to speend the 1200 PPE that it would take to teleport there and back.
Not to mention that even if you're completely familiar with the location you're teleporting to, you still have a 1% chance of error which would have a 75% chance of putting you hundreds of miles off course, and a 2% chance of instant death.
But sure, why would a first (or even fifth) level Line Walker rather just zip over there in his Titan Recon Bot at 150 mph? Or take his Flying Titan power armor there at 400 mph?
(I know, there's also Ley Line teleportation. That's fine if the place you want to go is on a ley line and you're a Line Walker... but for most of the classes out there and many of the places that mages might want to go, this just isn't an option).

Not to mention that, following your own logic, teleportation can't take you into buildings...

Also, there might be times when a mage wants to kill things.
Believe it or not, the armaments of a giant robot or other vehicle might just do that a bit quicker than spending PPE casting Call Lightning or even Sub-Particle Accelleration. Missiles are handy things.

[Zer0 Kay]

Nah, not facetious. Just have a solid opinion on mages is all. When you have the power of the mega-verse at your fingertips...when you can fly, turn into a tiger, teleport, move objects with your mind, summon fire from your hands, and a host of other abilities.... why bother with a mundane clunky loud hunk of steel that would only slow you down and block off those same abilities I've previously described? I kinda look at it like somone that spent 10 years of thier life learning how to be a brain surgon and then decides to make a carear out of working at McDonalds. Just makes zero sense to me. (Unless they happen to be a Techno-wizard of course!!)

You have a solid opinion on mages, but it's not backed up by anything in the books. Your view is completely inconsistant with the way that mages are presented in the official material.
Comparing piloting a vehicle to working at mcdonalds is absurd.
How long does Fly as The Eagle last? 20 minutes per level.
How long can a stole Deaths Head Transport fly? 20 hours.
Now compare cargo capacity and rethink things a bit.

And "Slow you down"!?
How fast can a tiger run? Not as fast as the 50 MPH that Fly as the Eagle can go, but that's still slower than the infamously slow Glitterboy can run.
Yes, Teleport Superior is faster, but you seriously expect mages to rely on this? It's a FIFTEENTH LEVEL SPELL!! Very few mages would even have it, and those who did might rather just take a drive into town and back than to speend the 1200 PPE that it would take to teleport there and back.
Not to mention that even if you're completely familiar with the location you're teleporting to, you still have a 1% chance of error which would have a 75% chance of putting you hundreds of miles off course, and a 2% chance of instant death.
But sure, why would a first (or even fifth) level Line Walker rather just zip over there in his Titan Recon Bot at 150 mph? Or take his Flying Titan power armor there at 400 mph?
(I know, there's also Ley Line teleportation. That's fine if the place you want to go is on a ley line and you're a Line Walker... but for most of the classes out there and many of the places that mages might want to go, this just isn't an option).

Not to mention that, following your own logic, teleportation can't take you into buildings...

Also, there might be times when a mage wants to kill things.
Believe it or not, the armaments of a giant robot or other vehicle might just do that a bit quicker than spending PPE casting Call Lightning or even Sub-Particle Accelleration. Missiles are handy things.

Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing. HIT HIM HARDER!! Your arguement is...like mine with more detail.

[Temporalmage]

What exactly is the rule on p. 19?

It's been presented before, but here goes again, bold text is mine for empasis:

Trying to cast magic from inside a vehicle or giant robot is impossible, causing the magical effect/damage to strike those inside the vehicle (can not penetrate the walls of the vehicle; even novice students of magic are taught this). As a result, the spell caster must at least open a window or hatch, and stick his head and upper body out (a nice target for snipers) to weave his magic. Many spells also require line of sight to strike a specific target; the spell caster must be able to see his quarry.

Dang fortunately the magical effect/damage is striking those inside it is teleporting them outside. Now that I see the scripture it is clear that the rule was meant for those idiots who try to cast direct fire or touch spells from the inside of a robot at people outside.

Or those that try to teleport into robots or vehicles!

How is this funny to you. It still says that T-port can be done because it still targets/effects the people on one side of the "skinn" and moves them to the other. The location is only a target in the persons mind so unless the skinn is able to cause amnesia in the person they can still teleport. I dought a mage in a giant robot would suddenly forget what his home looked like.

Its funny to me because magic simply can't pass through a robot or vehicle. States it directly in the BOM...TWICE! Wanna know why? Look on page 162 of the Main book. "Magic is an energy...." Whatever clasification of energy that magic is made of the rules in the books have already forbidden magic from penetrating, passing through, going around, or whatever verbage you attempt, Robots and vehicles. I just find it very funny that so many peaple just can't accept what is written in the books!?!?!? I've never asked anyone to blindly play it that way, nor insisted that that's the only way to play it. Heaven knows it's your game, play it how you want. But it's totally hilarious knee slapping stuff that so many peaple just won't at least admit that the rule exists, in published cannon material. Instead we have those like Doomy that insist that the rule doesn't make sense to him so it doesnt' exist, or it's not ment to include spells X, Y, and Z. Just because they say so. Without one word in the books to back themselves up. Now thats just side splitting funny!!!

[Temporalmage]

You have a solid opinion on mages, but it's not backed up by anything in the books. Your view is completely inconsistant with the way that mages are presented in the official material.

Lets check that shall we?
Ley Line Walker: "Tend toward inexpensive and easy to replace items (or items thay can carry, like a wing board), because they often have to leave thier vehicle behind when traveling along ley lines (phasing).
Mystic: "vehicle of choice is often a living animal, horse, fury beetle, or other animal. Also attracted to motorcycles, dune buggies, and ground hover vehicles."
Shifter: "Vehicle of choice is often a motorcycle, hover vehicle or horse. Often inexpensive and easily replaced in case it is destroyed by a creature from a rift or left behind when he explores a rift."
Techno-Wizards: Favorite types of vehicles tend to be souped up motorcycles, dune buggies, and hover vehicles."
Magus OCC's: They all seem to prefer thier automatons to normal vehicles.
Conjurer: "Vehicle of choice is usually a living animal, such as a horse or fury beetle, but a motorcycle, dune buggy, or hover cycle are also common."
Corrupt: ? don't say anything bout them even using vehicles.
Grey Seer: "Likes to walk. May aquire a riding animal or TW vehicle."
Mystic Knight: May have a horse, monster steed, hovercycle, or some other mode of transportation." Gee, the only one that leaves it up to interpretation, and it's discussing NPC's.

Yup. Them mages sure like their huge robots and tanks don't they!!

Comparing piloting a vehicle to working at mcdonalds is absurd.

No. Just working at McDonalds is absurd. Anything else is opinion.

How long does Fly as The Eagle last? 20 minutes per level.
How long can a stole Deaths Head Transport fly? 20 hours.
Now compare cargo capacity and rethink things a bit.

Cargo capacity? That your big thing? Then how bout spells like Dimensional Pocket? How many pockets you want on your BDU's buddy??

And "Slow you down"!?
How fast can a tiger run? Not as fast as the 50 MPH that Fly as the Eagle can go, but that's still slower than the infamously slow Glitterboy can run.
Yes, Teleport Superior is faster, but you seriously expect mages to rely on this? It's a FIFTEENTH LEVEL SPELL!! Very few mages would even have it, and those who did might rather just take a drive into town and back than to speend the 1200 PPE that it would take to teleport there and back.
Not to mention that even if you're completely familiar with the location you're teleporting to, you still have a 1% chance of error which would have a 75% chance of putting you hundreds of miles off course, and a 2% chance of instant death.
But sure, why would a first (or even fifth) level Line Walker rather just zip over there in his Titan Recon Bot at 150 mph? Or take his Flying Titan power armor there at 400 mph?
(I know, there's also Ley Line teleportation. That's fine if the place you want to go is on a ley line and you're a Line Walker... but for most of the classes out there and many of the places that mages might want to go, this just isn't an option).

Gee you really hit the books to get all that info didn't ya? But ya seemed to forget a couple things in your reading. Like the fact that the top speeds of those robots (at least the ground based ones) are for open terrain. In the woods fly as an eagle would still rule against Titan Racon Bot. Ya ain't going to go 150 through the trees are ya? Cause if ya do your probably going to become guacamole on the windshield!

Not to mention that, following your own logic, teleportation can't take you into buildings...

Oh? Don't recall saying anything bout buildings.... But if I did then it'd have to be a solid MDC building with compleate environmental seals, just like a robot. Only building I could think of that fit's that criteria would be Chi-Town, or mabey Lone Star. If an underground base could be considered a single building, which I doubt.

Also, there might be times when a mage wants to kill things.
Believe it or not, the armaments of a giant robot or other vehicle might just do that a bit quicker than spending PPE casting Call Lightning or even Sub-Particle Accelleration. Missiles are handy things.

Ya they are! So's being able to see the invisable, or reading thier aura, or negating the need to fire a missile by trapping them with a carpet of adhesion or magic net. But wait!!! Can you believe it?? They can't do any of these things while thier in a robot!! Gee wiz Killer, I geuss you need to get a bigger hammer!!
Just for you Zero

[Zer0 Kay]

Its funny to me because magic simply can't pass through a robot or vehicle. States it directly in the BOM...TWICE! Wanna know why? Look on page 162 of the Main book. "Magic is an energy...." Whatever clasification of energy that magic is made of the rules in the books have already forbidden magic from penetrating, passing through, going around, or whatever verbage you attempt, Robots and vehicles. I just find it very funny that so many peaple just can't accept what is written in the books!?!?!? I've never asked anyone to blindly play it that way, nor insisted that that's the only way to play it. Heaven knows it's your game, play it how you want. But it's totally hilarious knee slapping stuff that so many peaple just won't at least admit that the rule exists, in published cannon material. Instead we have those like Doomy that insist that the rule doesn't make sense to him so it doesnt' exist, or it's not ment to include spells X, Y, and Z. Just because they say so. Without one word in the books to back themselves up. Now thats just side splitting funny!!!

Where does it specifically say that magic is an energy? All I see is explaining how magic is powered by PPE. Oh by the way you do realize Gama Radiation is an energy and passes through everything. I'm sure their is a energy that can pass through MDC. Besides Teleport doesn't pass you through the material. It is a space fold one end is here the other there. It is more likely a dimension it travels through rather than a transference of energy. Even at light speed you can't arrive 300mi away instantaniously. Oh I admit it exists in a book I don't own. I also beleive it doesn't make sense the way it is written. I also beleive that Teleport's any where is as much justification as Mystic Portal's can go through walls. I also think that it is stupid that they decided the rule needed to be clarified after not 2 not even 3 years, lets see 1983-when was the GMG released? So you have magi teleporting everywhere until bah, bah, bum the release of the GMG. Then the magi are like damn I knew I did this yesterday what happened. Ah the great god KS wanted to justify how Tolkeen could be defeated because if the magi could teleport explosives or Elementals (non-living) into the soft inner belly of Giant Robots or vehicles they would have had no chance.


So anyways when was the GMG released?

[Temporalmage]

Where does it specifically say that magic is an energy?

Page 162 Rifts main book: "Step Three: Understanding Magic. Magic is an energy that can be controlled and manipulated by the huminoid mind and force of will."

All I see is explaining how magic is powered by PPE. Oh by the way you do realize Gama Radiation is an energy and passes through everything. I'm sure their is a energy that can pass through MDC. Besides Teleport doesn't pass you through the material. It is a space fold one end is here the other there. It is more likely a dimension it travels through rather than a transference of energy. Even at light speed you can't arrive 300mi away instantaniously.

I hate to sound redundant, but we are talking about magic here. The spell is not very clear at all in how exactly teleport works. For all we know some GOD out there has the sole job of picking peaple up with his giant pair of tweezers and putting them where they want to go. And mis-teleportations happen when the person hasn't concentrated enough for that GOD to read thier minds properly.

Oh I admit it exists in a book I don't own. I also beleive it doesn't make sense the way it is written. I also beleive that Teleport's any where is as much justification as Mystic Portal's can go through walls.

Unfortunatly alot of things in Palladiums books don't make sense if examined with enough scrutiny. The very reason so many "house rules" are talked about on this very site.

I also think that it is stupid that they decided the rule needed to be clarified after not 2 not even 3 years, lets see 1983-when was the GMG released? So you have magi teleporting everywhere until bah, bah, bum the release of the GMG. Then the magi are like damn I knew I did this yesterday what happened. Ah the great god KS wanted to justify how Tolkeen could be defeated because if the magi could teleport explosives or Elementals (non-living) into the soft inner belly of Giant Robots or vehicles they would have had no chance.


So anyways when was the GMG released?

The first mention of this rule is in Source book one, page 10. It was simply reworded and stated better in the Book of Magic. By the way Source Book one is copyrighted in 1983. So it wasn't all that long after Rifts came out. It was just buried in a book that not everyone went out and got. Then it wasn't printed that often, so no one really knew or cared. This isn't a new thing really, it's just presented in a brand new package with 30% more product and double the cost!!

[Zer0 Kay]

Where does it specifically say that magic is an energy?

Page 162 Rifts main book: "Step Three: Understanding Magic. Magic is an energy that can be controlled and manipulated by the huminoid mind and force of will."

OK that still doesn't mean that the entire process contains the energy that initiates it. Is the fireball from beginning to end composed of this energy? Is the effect of fear caused by this energy manipulating your brain? Is the animal or being you summon composed of this energy? No the energy is they catalyst to the effect.

All I see is explaining how magic is powered by PPE. Oh by the way you do realize Gama Radiation is an energy and passes through everything. I'm sure their is a energy that can pass through MDC. Besides Teleport doesn't pass you through the material. It is a space fold one end is here the other there. It is more likely a dimension it travels through rather than a transference of energy. Even at light speed you can't arrive 300mi away instantaniously.

I hate to sound redundant, but we are talking about magic here. The spell is not very clear at all in how exactly teleport works. For all we know some GOD out there has the sole job of picking peaple up with his giant pair of tweezers and putting them where they want to go. And mis-teleportations happen when the person hasn't concentrated enough for that GOD to read thier minds properly.

Very funny thought, so in that case is the god created by the energy?

Oh I admit it exists in a book I don't own. I also beleive it doesn't make sense the way it is written. I also beleive that Teleport's any where is as much justification as Mystic Portal's can go through walls.

Unfortunatly alot of things in Palladiums books don't make sense if examined with enough scrutiny. The very reason so many "house rules" are talked about on this very site.

OK so then you admit it makes no sense then and should be replaced by a house rule or omitted completely (everyone was doing fine without it).

I also think that it is stupid that they decided the rule needed to be clarified after not 2 not even 3 years, lets see 1983-when was the GMG released? So you have magi teleporting everywhere until bah, bah, bum the release of the GMG. Then the magi are like damn I knew I did this yesterday what happened. Ah the great god KS wanted to justify how Tolkeen could be defeated because if the magi could teleport explosives or Elementals (non-living) into the soft inner belly of Giant Robots or vehicles they would have had no chance.


So anyways when was the GMG released?

The first mention of this rule is in Source book one, page 10. It was simply reworded and stated better in the Book of Magic. By the way Source Book one is copyrighted in 1983. So it wasn't all that long after Rifts came out. It was just buried in a book that not everyone went out and got. Then it wasn't printed that often, so no one really knew or cared. This isn't a new thing really, it's just presented in a brand new package with 30% more product and double the cost!! [/quote]

Oh thank you for giving me the reference to source book one since I have that. I like the wording in it much better.

The psionic or mage inside the robot or power armor can not use his paranormal powers to affect anybody outside the armor or bot. Of course, if the individual steps out of the robot for a momoent, and is in range of the Psi-Stalker, he may be sensed immediately. Blah, blah, blah.
Notice how they mention in the question the mage being in SAMAS...did you say they would never do that? It also says that the spells can't affect anybody outside. Fortunately Teleport only affects the people inside. So back to my question when was the GMG, the book that apparently everyone except me bought (due to your comment on SB1), released?

[Killer Cyborg]

You have a solid opinion on mages, but it's not backed up by anything in the books. Your view is completely inconsistant with the way that mages are presented in the official material.

Lets check that shall we?
Ley Line Walker: "Tend toward inexpensive and easy to replace items (or items thay can carry, like a wing board), because they often have to leave thier vehicle behind when traveling along ley lines (phasing).
Mystic: "vehicle of choice is often a living animal, horse, fury beetle, or other animal. Also attracted to motorcycles, dune buggies, and ground hover vehicles."
Shifter: "Vehicle of choice is often a motorcycle, hover vehicle or horse. Often inexpensive and easily replaced in case it is destroyed by a creature from a rift or left behind when he explores a rift."
Techno-Wizards: Favorite types of vehicles tend to be souped up motorcycles, dune buggies, and hover vehicles."
Magus OCC's: They all seem to prefer thier automatons to normal vehicles.
Conjurer: "Vehicle of choice is usually a living animal, such as a horse or fury beetle, but a motorcycle, dune buggy, or hover cycle are also common."
Corrupt: ? don't say anything bout them even using vehicles.
Grey Seer: "Likes to walk. May aquire a riding animal or TW vehicle."
Mystic Knight: May have a horse, monster steed, hovercycle, or some other mode of transportation." Gee, the only one that leaves it up to interpretation, and it's discussing NPC's.

Yup. Them mages sure like their huge robots and tanks don't they!!

As I pointed out, many mages can't pilot robots or tanks.
If you remember, you were arguing that mages would never bother to use ANY enclosed vehicle.
Like Dune Buggies, for example.
Also, "TW Vehicles" could well include ANY vehicle that includes techno-wizardry elements.

Rifts, p. 94
"Applicable to all conventional and military passenger vehicles, and giant robot vehicles. A man of magic or psionic must be the pilot in order to activate the magic."

How long does Fly as The Eagle last? 20 minutes per level.
How long can a stole Deaths Head Transport fly? 20 hours.
Now compare cargo capacity and rethink things a bit.

Cargo capacity? That your big thing? Then how bout spells like Dimensional Pocket? How many pockets you want on your BDU's buddy??

1. What's Dimensional Pocket?
2. What about it?

And "Slow you down"!?
How fast can a tiger run? Not as fast as the 50 MPH that Fly as the Eagle can go, but that's still slower than the infamously slow Glitterboy can run.
Yes, Teleport Superior is faster, but you seriously expect mages to rely on this? It's a FIFTEENTH LEVEL SPELL!! Very few mages would even have it, and those who did might rather just take a drive into town and back than to speend the 1200 PPE that it would take to teleport there and back.
Not to mention that even if you're completely familiar with the location you're teleporting to, you still have a 1% chance of error which would have a 75% chance of putting you hundreds of miles off course, and a 2% chance of instant death.
But sure, why would a first (or even fifth) level Line Walker rather just zip over there in his Titan Recon Bot at 150 mph? Or take his Flying Titan power armor there at 400 mph?
(I know, there's also Ley Line teleportation. That's fine if the place you want to go is on a ley line and you're a Line Walker... but for most of the classes out there and many of the places that mages might want to go, this just isn't an option).

Gee you really hit the books to get all that info didn't ya?

I like to research before I talk... It makes me different from those I argue against.

But ya seemed to forget a couple things in your reading. Like the fact that the top speeds of those robots (at least the ground based ones) are for open terrain. In the woods fly as an eagle would still rule against Titan Racon Bot. Ya ain't going to go 150 through the trees are ya? Cause if ya do your probably going to become guacamole on the windshield!

Running through trees, you might have to slow down to 1/3 normal speed.
50 mph, same as Fly As The Eagle.
But if you're in a hurry, the 3d6 MD laser turrets can clear a 2000' path rather quickly.
(Hey, look at that... I just remembered another advantage of vehicles...Radar with a 100 mile range... what spell covers that?)

Not to mention that, following your own logic, teleportation can't take you into buildings...

Oh? Don't recall saying anything bout buildings.... [/quote]

No, you remain silent or change the subject whenever I point out the logical conclusion to your views.

But if I did then it'd have to be a solid MDC building with compleate environmental seals, just like a robot. Only building I could think of that fit's that criteria would be Chi-Town, or mabey Lone Star. If an underground base could be considered a single building, which I doubt.

Hit the books yourself, or just read back through the threads and refresh your memory.
Vehicles don't need to be environmentally sealed to keep magic out.
They also don't need to be MDC to keep magic out.

Also, there might be times when a mage wants to kill things.
Believe it or not, the armaments of a giant robot or other vehicle might just do that a bit quicker than spending PPE casting Call Lightning or even Sub-Particle Accelleration. Missiles are handy things.

Ya they are! So's being able to see the invisable, or reading thier aura, or negating the need to fire a missile by trapping them with a carpet of adhesion or magic net. But wait!!! Can you believe it?? They can't do any of these things while thier in a robot!! [/quote]

-Thermo imagers and radar can pick up creatures with lesser invisibility (not that we were talking about invisible creatures anyway) just as well as See Invisible can. Not true of Invisibility Superior, but that's negates once they attack anyway. An attack that you could easily withstand from inside a vehicle...
-I don't have a clue what See Aura has to do with anything.
-CoA and Magic Net are nice, within their extremely limited range. Of course, blowing something up with missiles or laser turrets works just as well and has a longer duration...

Basically, you're painting mages as raving technophobes who would give up all the comforts of modern technology for magic.
Which is a bizarre view because the two are NOT mutually exclusive.
You want to Read Auras before combat? Fine.. pay a technowizard to build it into your vehicle's sensors. Just like any other TW ability.
You really want to cast spells yourself?
Expend the effort to stick your head out the turret or window and cast a spell.
Of course, you make a better target that way... just like you do if you're not in a vehicle in the first place.

[Zer0 Kay]

You have a solid opinion on mages, but it's not backed up by anything in the books. Your view is completely inconsistant with the way that mages are presented in the official material.

Lets check that shall we?
Ley Line Walker: "Tend toward inexpensive and easy to replace items (or items thay can carry, like a wing board), because they often have to leave thier vehicle behind when traveling along ley lines (phasing).
Mystic: "vehicle of choice is often a living animal, horse, fury beetle, or other animal. Also attracted to motorcycles, dune buggies, and ground hover vehicles."
Shifter: "Vehicle of choice is often a motorcycle, hover vehicle or horse. Often inexpensive and easily replaced in case it is destroyed by a creature from a rift or left behind when he explores a rift."
Techno-Wizards: Favorite types of vehicles tend to be souped up motorcycles, dune buggies, and hover vehicles."
Magus OCC's: They all seem to prefer thier automatons to normal vehicles.
Conjurer: "Vehicle of choice is usually a living animal, such as a horse or fury beetle, but a motorcycle, dune buggy, or hover cycle are also common."
Corrupt: ? don't say anything bout them even using vehicles.
Grey Seer: "Likes to walk. May aquire a riding animal or TW vehicle."
Mystic Knight: May have a horse, monster steed, hovercycle, or some other mode of transportation." Gee, the only one that leaves it up to interpretation, and it's discussing NPC's.

Yup. Them mages sure like their huge robots and tanks don't they!!

As I pointed out, many mages can't pilot robots or tanks.
If you remember, you were arguing that mages would never bother to use ANY enclosed vehicle.
Like Dune Buggies, for example.
Also, "TW Vehicles" could well include ANY vehicle that includes techno-wizardry elements.

Rifts, p. 94
"Applicable to all conventional and military passenger vehicles, and giant robot vehicles. A man of magic or psionic must be the pilot in order to activate the magic."

How long does Fly as The Eagle last? 20 minutes per level.
How long can a stole Deaths Head Transport fly? 20 hours.
Now compare cargo capacity and rethink things a bit.

Cargo capacity? That your big thing? Then how bout spells like Dimensional Pocket? How many pockets you want on your BDU's buddy??

1. What's Dimensional Pocket?
2. What about it?

And "Slow you down"!?
How fast can a tiger run? Not as fast as the 50 MPH that Fly as the Eagle can go, but that's still slower than the infamously slow Glitterboy can run.
Yes, Teleport Superior is faster, but you seriously expect mages to rely on this? It's a FIFTEENTH LEVEL SPELL!! Very few mages would even have it, and those who did might rather just take a drive into town and back than to speend the 1200 PPE that it would take to teleport there and back.
Not to mention that even if you're completely familiar with the location you're teleporting to, you still have a 1% chance of error which would have a 75% chance of putting you hundreds of miles off course, and a 2% chance of instant death.
But sure, why would a first (or even fifth) level Line Walker rather just zip over there in his Titan Recon Bot at 150 mph? Or take his Flying Titan power armor there at 400 mph?
(I know, there's also Ley Line teleportation. That's fine if the place you want to go is on a ley line and you're a Line Walker... but for most of the classes out there and many of the places that mages might want to go, this just isn't an option).

Gee you really hit the books to get all that info didn't ya?

I like to research before I talk... It makes me different from those I argue against.

But ya seemed to forget a couple things in your reading. Like the fact that the top speeds of those robots (at least the ground based ones) are for open terrain. In the woods fly as an eagle would still rule against Titan Racon Bot. Ya ain't going to go 150 through the trees are ya? Cause if ya do your probably going to become guacamole on the windshield!

Running through trees, you might have to slow down to 1/3 normal speed.
50 mph, same as Fly As The Eagle.
But if you're in a hurry, the 3d6 MD laser turrets can clear a 2000' path rather quickly.
(Hey, look at that... I just remembered another advantage of vehicles...Radar with a 100 mile range... what spell covers that?)

Not to mention that, following your own logic, teleportation can't take you into buildings...

Oh? Don't recall saying anything bout buildings....

No, you remain silent or change the subject whenever I point out the logical conclusion to your views.

But if I did then it'd have to be a solid MDC building with compleate environmental seals, just like a robot. Only building I could think of that fit's that criteria would be Chi-Town, or mabey Lone Star. If an underground base could be considered a single building, which I doubt.

Hit the books yourself, or just read back through the threads and refresh your memory.
Vehicles don't need to be environmentally sealed to keep magic out.
They also don't need to be MDC to keep magic out.

Also, there might be times when a mage wants to kill things.
Believe it or not, the armaments of a giant robot or other vehicle might just do that a bit quicker than spending PPE casting Call Lightning or even Sub-Particle Accelleration. Missiles are handy things.

Ya they are! So's being able to see the invisable, or reading thier aura, or negating the need to fire a missile by trapping them with a carpet of adhesion or magic net. But wait!!! Can you believe it?? They can't do any of these things while thier in a robot!! [/quote]

-Thermo imagers and radar can pick up creatures with lesser invisibility (not that we were talking about invisible creatures anyway) just as well as See Invisible can. Not true of Invisibility Superior, but that's negates once they attack anyway. An attack that you could easily withstand from inside a vehicle...
-I don't have a clue what See Aura has to do with anything.
-CoA and Magic Net are nice, within their extremely limited range. Of course, blowing something up with missiles or laser turrets works just as well and has a longer duration...

Basically, you're painting mages as raving technophobes who would give up all the comforts of modern technology for magic.
Which is a bizarre view because the two are NOT mutually exclusive.
You want to Read Auras before combat? Fine.. pay a technowizard to build it into your vehicle's sensors. Just like any other TW ability.
You really want to cast spells yourself?
Expend the effort to stick your head out the turret or window and cast a spell.
Of course, you make a better target that way... just like you do if you're not in a vehicle in the first place.[/quote]

Damn this one is getting to long I'm not even gonna bother seperating the parts.

Gee I hope those dimensional pockets weren't cast outside the vehicle.

Hope he's not trying to fly through the woods with fly as an eagle because even at those low speeds he'll become tree paste.

As far as being a better target when sticking whatever out a window hatch etc. I beleive someone mentioned force field. Have one built into the hatch so when it is opened the forcefield turns on.

[Temporalmage]

Very funny thought, so in that case is the god created by the energy?

Mabey the god creates the energy in the first place.

Unfortunatly alot of things in Palladiums books don't make sense if examined with enough scrutiny. The very reason so many "house rules" are talked about on this very site.

OK so then you admit it makes no sense then and should be replaced by a house rule or omitted completely (everyone was doing fine without it).

Actually I admit that it seems that some peaple have a hard time grasping the logic of that specific rule. I on the other hand don't have a problem with it. Wether I use it or not would depend on the situation. And that's MY house rule.

Oh thank you for giving me the reference to source book one since I have that. I like the wording in it much better.

The psionic or mage inside the robot or power armor can not use his paranormal powers to affect anybody outside the armor or bot. Of course, if the individual steps out of the robot for a momoent, and is in range of the Psi-Stalker, he may be sensed immediately. Blah, blah, blah.
Notice how they mention in the question the mage being in SAMAS...did you say they would never do that? It also says that the spells can't affect anybody outside. Fortunately Teleport only affects the people inside. So back to my question when was the GMG, the book that apparently everyone except me bought (due to your comment on SB1), released?

No offense but the rule that has been the subject of such a hot debate isn't found in the GMG....its in the BOM (Book of Magic), and it's listed as being printed October 2001. FYI. Actually I just think that Rifts has become much more popular since it came out, obviously, and many many more peaple have utilized the internet on this specific site to bander about thier opinions. It's just a fact that not everyone has Sourcebook one, yet many many more peaple DO have the much more recently released BOM. Which is specifically why this seems like such a new rule to the majority of peaple.

[Temporalmage]

As I pointed out, many mages can't pilot robots or tanks.
If you remember, you were arguing that mages would never bother to use ANY enclosed vehicle.
Like Dune Buggies, for example.
Also, "TW Vehicles" could well include ANY vehicle that includes techno-wizardry elements.

Now your putting words in my mouth. That I just don't like. Please quote me when I stated that "mages would never bother to use ANY enclosed vehicle." While your at it since when is a dune buggy an enclosed vehicle?

Rifts, p. 94
"Applicable to all conventional and military passenger vehicles, and giant robot vehicles. A man of magic or psionic must be the pilot in order to activate the magic."

How long does Fly as The Eagle last? 20 minutes per level.
How long can a stole Deaths Head Transport fly? 20 hours.
Now compare cargo capacity and rethink things a bit.

Cargo capacity? That your big thing? Then how bout spells like Dimensional Pocket? How many pockets you want on your BDU's buddy??

1. What's Dimensional Pocket?
2. What about it?

Page 247 of the BOM.

I like to research before I talk... It makes me different from those I argue against.

Gee, how quaint. So what was Dimensional Pocket again?

Running through trees, you might have to slow down to 1/3 normal speed.
50 mph, same as Fly As The Eagle.

Probably not. A person flying at 50 would be able to dodge a tree quite a bit easier than a giant robot that's 20 foot tall.

But if you're in a hurry, the 3d6 MD laser turrets can clear a 2000' path rather quickly.

Yes, yes it can. A path that's the size of a basketball. Real usfull that "path".

(Hey, look at that... I just remembered another advantage of vehicles...Radar with a 100 mile range... what spell covers that?)

Oops! Yup a radar is going to really do you a lot of good when your target is in the trees. Radar isn't going to help unless your target is at least 100 foot up.

Not to mention that, following your own logic, teleportation can't take you into buildings...

Oh? Don't recall saying anything bout buildings....

No, you remain silent or change the subject whenever I point out the logical conclusion to your views.

Dude, you have enough trouble trying not to trip on your own logic, leave mine alone before you hurt yourself.

But if I did then it'd have to be a solid MDC building with compleate environmental seals, just like a robot. Only building I could think of that fit's that criteria would be Chi-Town, or mabey Lone Star. If an underground base could be considered a single building, which I doubt.

Hit the books yourself, or just read back through the threads and refresh your memory.
Vehicles don't need to be environmentally sealed to keep magic out.
They also don't need to be MDC to keep magic out.

I didn't say that they did. You brought up buildings, and since the books dont' cover teleporting into buildings I gave you my own opinion on the subject. If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question...either way my answer can't be wrong.

Also, there might be times when a mage wants to kill things.
Believe it or not, the armaments of a giant robot or other vehicle might just do that a bit quicker than spending PPE casting Call Lightning or even Sub-Particle Accelleration. Missiles are handy things.

Ya they are! So's being able to see the invisable, or reading thier aura, or negating the need to fire a missile by trapping them with a carpet of adhesion or magic net. But wait!!! Can you believe it?? They can't do any of these things while thier in a robot!!

-Thermo imagers and radar can pick up creatures with lesser invisibility (not that we were talking about invisible creatures anyway) just as well as See Invisible can. Not true of Invisibility Superior, but that's negates once they attack anyway. An attack that you could easily withstand from inside a vehicle...
-I don't have a clue what See Aura has to do with anything.
-CoA and Magic Net are nice, within their extremely limited range. Of course, blowing something up with missiles or laser turrets works just as well and has a longer duration...

[/quote]
OoooK... I think some of the differance of opinion are roleplaying styles here. Looking at what you've written it seems that your more of a roll player than a role player. Just an observation not a jibe. But this would explain our two totally differant views of mages.

Basically, you're painting mages as raving technophobes who would give up all the comforts of modern technology for magic.

Nope. I've never stated any such thing. I believe that mages use technology quite often, if not all the time. What I DON"T beleive is that a mage would isolate themselves inside of somthing that would negate their powers. At least not all the time, which is what you're implying.

Which is a bizarre view because the two are NOT mutually exclusive.
You want to Read Auras before combat? Fine.. pay a technowizard to build it into your vehicle's sensors. Just like any other TW ability.
You really want to cast spells yourself?
Expend the effort to stick your head out the turret or window and cast a spell.
Of course, you make a better target that way... just like you do if you're not in a vehicle in the first place.

Well you got two options here. Ride in a nice comfy robot and be safe...for now. Or choose the path of caution and follow the robot on your hovercycle. Now which target is someone going to shoot at first? A huge robot bristling with weapons? Or the little man on a simple hovercycle? And once combat begins how easy would it be for the mage to use his spells to be an even greater menace to the attackers than the robot? Pretty easy when he glues them to the ground so the robot can smear them over the landscape.
That guy on the motorcycle that's riding past your robot.... is he an enemy or just some guy? Well if you were outside of the robot, like on a horse or TW wingboard, you could read his aura and determine how powerfull he was, or sense if he was evil, or supernatural, BEFORE he attacked you. But stuck inside the robot you better hope it's not a dragon in disguise that decides it wants to open the robot up like a can of sardines. See the differance? IMHO a mage that locks himself away inside a robot or vehicle that blocks his paranormal powers, might as well not have the powers in the first place. Want a robot? Play a robot pilot. Want to cast spell? Play a mage. The two are not inclusive.

[Temporalmage]

Damn this one is getting to long I'm not even gonna bother seperating the parts.

Tell me about it...yesh!!

Gee I hope those dimensional pockets weren't cast outside the vehicle.

Wouldn't matter really.

Hope he's not trying to fly through the woods with fly as an eagle because even at those low speeds he'll become tree paste.

Depends on how close the trees are. But any way you cut it he'll be going faster than a giant robot crashing through the trees. And almost impossible to see with all the foliage that's going to get knocked down and thrashed about.

As far as being a better target when sticking whatever out a window hatch etc. I beleive someone mentioned force field. Have one built into the hatch so when it is opened the forcefield turns on.

Not a bad idea. But I'll tell you the same thing I told your buddy Killer: Want a robot? Play a robot pilot. Want to cast spell? Play a mage. The two are not inclusive.

[Temporalmage]

I hate to cry "foul" or anything...but I just can't resist.

As I pointed out, many mages can't pilot robots or tanks.

Lets look back on page 78 of this topic shall we??

Hunh, look at that! It looks like Line Walkers and TechnoWizards CAN pilot Robots! Along with anything else...

And some of you wondered what I found so funny all the time!!
I tell ya Killer, you better keep quoting Zero at the bottom of your sig line, it's the only thing in your posts with credibility!

[Killer Cyborg]

I hate to cry "foul" or anything...but I just can't resist.

As I pointed out, many mages can't pilot robots or tanks.

Lets look back on page 78 of this topic shall we??

I would, but my screen says we're only on p. 49...

Hunh, look at that! It looks like Line Walkers and TechnoWizards CAN pilot Robots! Along with anything else...

And some of you wondered what I found so funny all the time!!
I tell ya Killer, you better keep quoting Zero at the bottom of your sig line, it's the only thing in your posts with credibility! [/quote]

I still wonder what you find so funny...
Line Walkers and Techno-Wizards can pilot anything.
Mystics and Shifters can pilot anything but robots, jets, and tanks.

Many mages CAN pilot tanks and robots, many mages cannot....

What're you on about?

[Killer Cyborg]

As I pointed out, many mages can't pilot robots or tanks.
If you remember, you were arguing that mages would never bother to use ANY enclosed vehicle.
Like Dune Buggies, for example.
Also, "TW Vehicles" could well include ANY vehicle that includes techno-wizardry elements.

Now your putting words in my mouth. That I just don't like. Please quote me when I stated that "mages would never bother to use ANY enclosed vehicle."

I did paraphrase, but here you go...

And since magic is hindered when being in a robot or power armor, as are psionic powers, mages really wouldn't have much experiance with the insides of them. What would be the logic of locking yourself inside of somthing that blocks your paranormal powers?

Unless you are now of the opinion that ONLY robots and power armor block magic, driving a car would be "locking yourself inside something that blocks your paranormal powers."

Logically mages just wouldn't be spending alot of time inside of a robot to gain ffamiliarity with it, except for the uber-rare exception, or unless you were a Techno-wizard. Whats the point of being a Ley Line Walker if you lock yourself inside of a robot and can't even sense a ley line? Or gain the extra power from being close to one? See the logic here? Traska may be familiar with his car, but that's because it doesn't make him blind when he gets inside it, or deaf, or mute, or shut off any one of his other senses.

Traska isn't a mage... A mage would be shut off from sensing ley lines and stuff.

Getting inside of a robot or vehicle does exactly that to a mage.

There you go... I'll admit that you never used the word "enclosed".
I added it because I figured that's what you meant.
My apologies if you think it applies to convertables too...

[Killer Cyborg]

1. What's Dimensional Pocket?
2. What about it?

Page 247 of the BOM.

Oh, there it is.
Yeah, why use a robot or a car to transport stuff when you can just whip out your 10th level Temporal Magic spell.
I'm sure your average Ley Line walker does that sort of thing all the time.


Nifty spell, but I'd rather put passengers and equipment somewhere that doesn't dissapear after a while.
And that can hold more stuff.
Like a trunk or cargo space.

I like to research before I talk... It makes me different from those I argue against.

Gee, how quaint. So what was Dimensional Pocket again?

I looked for it under the list of standard spells, then concluded that you were refering to an obscure spell that most line walkers and techno-wizards won't ever see in their lifetime.
So I figured that it would save me some time and effort if you would just explain what you were talking about.
I was right on both counts.

Running through trees, you might have to slow down to 1/3 normal speed.
50 mph, same as Fly As The Eagle.

Probably not. A person flying at 50 would be able to dodge a tree quite a bit easier than a giant robot that's 20 foot tall.

Why dodge trees when you're in a nuclear powered MDC vehicle that can do punches for 1d6 MD?
Maybe you'd have to go around some REALLY big trees, but most could just be pushed out of the way, uprooted, or smashed without slowing down much.
Besides, not every place is a forest.

But if you're in a hurry, the 3d6 MD laser turrets can clear a 2000' path rather quickly.

Yes, yes it can. A path that's the size of a basketball. Real usfull that "path".

Sweep the guns around a bit.
Most trees fall over with a hole that big burned through them.
Or two holes, if it's a really big tree.

(Hey, look at that... I just remembered another advantage of vehicles...Radar with a 100 mile range... what spell covers that?)

Oops! Yup a radar is going to really do you a lot of good when your target is in the trees. Radar isn't going to help unless your target is at least 100 foot up.

Gee. Since a mage wouldn't ever leave the forest and since the CS never uses flying vehicles, I guess you're right.
How useless for a mage to have a radar...

Not to mention that, following your own logic, teleportation can't take you into buildings...

Oh? Don't recall saying anything bout buildings....

True.
You always dodge or ignore the question when I ask it, but I'll try again:
"What's the difference between a vehicle and any other container/building?"
Which gets right back to the fact that if you stick to "vehicles" being the only thing magic proof, then your mage can teleport into a box, but not if you put wheels on the box.

Logically, if it applies to vehicles then it applies to buildings.

Vehicles don't need to be environmentally sealed to keep magic out.
They also don't need to be MDC to keep magic out.

I didn't say that they did. You brought up buildings, and since the books dont' cover teleporting into buildings I gave you my own opinion on the subject. If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question...either way my answer can't be wrong.

Again, show me any reason why buildings would be any different from vehicles when it comes to magic getting inside.

Also, there might be times when a mage wants to kill things.
Believe it or not, the armaments of a giant robot or other vehicle might just do that a bit quicker than spending PPE casting Call Lightning or even Sub-Particle Accelleration. Missiles are handy things.

Ya they are! So's being able to see the invisable, or reading thier aura, or negating the need to fire a missile by trapping them with a carpet of adhesion or magic net. But wait!!! Can you believe it?? They can't do any of these things while thier in a robot!!

-Thermo imagers and radar can pick up creatures with lesser invisibility (not that we were talking about invisible creatures anyway) just as well as See Invisible can. Not true of Invisibility Superior, but that's negates once they attack anyway. An attack that you could easily withstand from inside a vehicle...
-I don't have a clue what See Aura has to do with anything.
-CoA and Magic Net are nice, within their extremely limited range. Of course, blowing something up with missiles or laser turrets works just as well and has a longer duration...

OoooK... I think some of the differance of opinion are roleplaying styles here. Looking at what you've written it seems that your more of a roll player than a role player. Just an observation not a jibe. But this would explain our two totally differant views of mages.[/quote]

Actually, I started off with the statement "If you need to kill something."
See Invisible and See Aura don't do that.
Neither do Magic Net or CoA, directly.

Basically, you're painting mages as raving technophobes who would give up all the comforts of modern technology for magic.

Nope. I've never stated any such thing. I believe that mages use technology quite often, if not all the time. What I DON"T beleive is that a mage would isolate themselves inside of somthing that would negate their powers. At least not all the time, which is what you're implying.

Alright, I'll admit that I was exaggerating your position and I'll point out that I never claimed that Mages would isolate themselves inside a vehicle All The Time...

Which is a bizarre view because the two are NOT mutually exclusive.
You want to Read Auras before combat? Fine.. pay a technowizard to build it into your vehicle's sensors. Just like any other TW ability.
You really want to cast spells yourself?
Expend the effort to stick your head out the turret or window and cast a spell.
Of course, you make a better target that way... just like you do if you're not in a vehicle in the first place.

Well you got two options here. Ride in a nice comfy robot and be safe...for now. Or choose the path of caution and follow the robot on your hovercycle. Now which target is someone going to shoot at first? A huge robot bristling with weapons? Or the little man on a simple hovercycle?

It depends on why you were in combat with them.
If they were bandits or demons looking for loot or flesh to eat, they'd go for the easy prey every time.
If you're assuming that the mage is the attacker, then you're asking the wrong question since they'll be shooting at you either way.
You should be asking "Would I rather attack an enemy from inside a giant robot armed with missiles and laser turrets, or would I rather be on my simple hovercycle?

And once combat begins how easy would it be for the mage to use his spells to be an even greater menace to the attackers than the robot? Pretty easy when he glues them to the ground so the robot can smear them over the landscape.
That guy on the motorcycle that's riding past your robot.... is he an enemy or just some guy? Well if you were outside of the robot, like on a horse or TW wingboard, you could read his aura and determine how powerfull he was,

Okay, I get you now. Your mage doesn't need a robot vehicle because he always travels with somebody who has one...?

or sense if he was evil, or supernatural, BEFORE he attacked you.

See Aura doesn't indicate alignment.
Maybe you're suggesting casting spells at them for a full 15 seconds while you get off Sense Evil and See Aura?
All before he attacks you?
Even casting one spell means giving him a half a melee start on you. Why not save the PPE and just stand there?
If he's evil, then he'll attack you before a half a melee goes by.
You can tell his power level by the amount of damage you take...

But stuck inside the robot you better hope it's not a dragon in disguise that decides it wants to open the robot up like a can of sardines. See the differance?

Yes.
You think that hostile dragons attack robots on sight, but they ignore guys casting spells at them from wingboards...
Maybe, if he's choosing between the two targets, but that's assuming that your mage is always traveling with a robot pilot.
Which is a strange assumption, to say the least.

Look at the scenario again:
Mage traveling along and runs into a hostile dragon.
He is traveling alone, so there is nobody to cower behind or to draw the dragon's fire.
You really think it's better for him to sit on his horse/wingboard/hovercycle casting See Aura and Sense Evil on the dragon than to be inside a robot vehicle or tank shooting the dragon with lasers or missiles?

IMHO a mage that locks himself away inside a robot or vehicle that blocks his paranormal powers, might as well not have the powers in the first place.

I happen to know martial arts.
If I go the rest of my life never needing to use them, I'll still die a happy man.
I know how to shoot in self defence.
If I go the rest of my life never needing to kill anybody, I'll still die a happy man.
Not everybody learns skills with the intent to constantly use them; many skills are best used in emergency situations.
Like after a angry dragon finally rips open your bot...
My mage will be just as capable as yours, only he'll be in a better postion because the dragon will be very wounded.

Want a robot? Play a robot pilot. Want to cast spell? Play a mage. The two are not inclusive.

Unless you have the brains to open a hatch if you want to cast spells...

[Zer0 Kay]

Hey TM I thought you said you were a Radar tech. minimum detection hight of radar is only limited by where the scan is going. For instance the GPN-22 PAR is capable of guiding a plane all the way down to the tarmak. Most NEXRAD RADAR take reading down to -3 deg. from the horizontal axis, ours is on a 30 foot tower (someone good at trig figure out how far out the beam goes before it hits ground.) Both radar are usefull and they can detect small objects. The PAR was originally designed to track Missiles on test ranges and is capable of tracking birds. The NEXRAD is designed to detect weather and as such is able to detect dust particles if one is dumb enough to reduce the threshold. So the Radar only good over 100' is a falicy.

[Zer0 Kay]

Hey KC on that dragon ignoring the mage for the GR remember that in role playing the mage is king. So the dragon would go after tha mage first to be safe not knowing what the mage is capable of sinc the dragon doesn't want to waste half a round using read aura to see how powerfull he is.

[Zer0 Kay]

1. What's Dimensional Pocket?
2. What about it?

Page 247 of the BOM.

Oh, there it is.
Yeah, why use a robot or a car to transport stuff when you can just whip out your 10th level Temporal Magic spell.
I'm sure your average Ley Line walker does that sort of thing all the time.


Nifty spell, but I'd rather put passengers and equipment somewhere that doesn't dissapear after a while.
And that can hold more stuff.
Like a trunk or cargo space.

I like to research before I talk... It makes me different from those I argue against.

Gee, how quaint. So what was Dimensional Pocket again?

I looked for it under the list of standard spells, then concluded that you were refering to an obscure spell that most line walkers and techno-wizards won't ever see in their lifetime.
So I figured that it would save me some time and effort if you would just explain what you were talking about.
I was right on both counts.

Running through trees, you might have to slow down to 1/3 normal speed.
50 mph, same as Fly As The Eagle.

Probably not. A person flying at 50 would be able to dodge a tree quite a bit easier than a giant robot that's 20 foot tall.

Why dodge trees when you're in a nuclear powered MDC vehicle that can do punches for 1d6 MD?
Maybe you'd have to go around some REALLY big trees, but most could just be pushed out of the way, uprooted, or smashed without slowing down much.
Besides, not every place is a forest.

But if you're in a hurry, the 3d6 MD laser turrets can clear a 2000' path rather quickly.

Yes, yes it can. A path that's the size of a basketball. Real usfull that "path".

Sweep the guns around a bit.
Most trees fall over with a hole that big burned through them.
Or two holes, if it's a really big tree.

(Hey, look at that... I just remembered another advantage of vehicles...Radar with a 100 mile range... what spell covers that?)

Oops! Yup a radar is going to really do you a lot of good when your target is in the trees. Radar isn't going to help unless your target is at least 100 foot up.

Gee. Since a mage wouldn't ever leave the forest and since the CS never uses flying vehicles, I guess you're right.
How useless for a mage to have a radar...

Not to mention that, following your own logic, teleportation can't take you into buildings...

Oh? Don't recall saying anything bout buildings....

True.
You always dodge or ignore the question when I ask it, but I'll try again:
"What's the difference between a vehicle and any other container/building?"
Which gets right back to the fact that if you stick to "vehicles" being the only thing magic proof, then your mage can teleport into a box, but not if you put wheels on the box.

Logically, if it applies to vehicles then it applies to buildings.

Vehicles don't need to be environmentally sealed to keep magic out.
They also don't need to be MDC to keep magic out.

I didn't say that they did. You brought up buildings, and since the books dont' cover teleporting into buildings I gave you my own opinion on the subject. If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question...either way my answer can't be wrong.

Again, show me any reason why buildings would be any different from vehicles when it comes to magic getting inside.

Also, there might be times when a mage wants to kill things.
Believe it or not, the armaments of a giant robot or other vehicle might just do that a bit quicker than spending PPE casting Call Lightning or even Sub-Particle Accelleration. Missiles are handy things.

Ya they are! So's being able to see the invisable, or reading thier aura, or negating the need to fire a missile by trapping them with a carpet of adhesion or magic net. But wait!!! Can you believe it?? They can't do any of these things while thier in a robot!!

-Thermo imagers and radar can pick up creatures with lesser invisibility (not that we were talking about invisible creatures anyway) just as well as See Invisible can. Not true of Invisibility Superior, but that's negates once they attack anyway. An attack that you could easily withstand from inside a vehicle...
-I don't have a clue what See Aura has to do with anything.
-CoA and Magic Net are nice, within their extremely limited range. Of course, blowing something up with missiles or laser turrets works just as well and has a longer duration...

OoooK... I think some of the differance of opinion are roleplaying styles here. Looking at what you've written it seems that your more of a roll player than a role player. Just an observation not a jibe. But this would explain our two totally differant views of mages.

Actually, I started off with the statement "If you need to kill something."
See Invisible and See Aura don't do that.
Neither do Magic Net or CoA, directly.

Basically, you're painting mages as raving technophobes who would give up all the comforts of modern technology for magic.

Nope. I've never stated any such thing. I believe that mages use technology quite often, if not all the time. What I DON"T beleive is that a mage would isolate themselves inside of somthing that would negate their powers. At least not all the time, which is what you're implying.

Alright, I'll admit that I was exaggerating your position and I'll point out that I never claimed that Mages would isolate themselves inside a vehicle All The Time...

Which is a bizarre view because the two are NOT mutually exclusive.
You want to Read Auras before combat? Fine.. pay a technowizard to build it into your vehicle's sensors. Just like any other TW ability.
You really want to cast spells yourself?
Expend the effort to stick your head out the turret or window and cast a spell.
Of course, you make a better target that way... just like you do if you're not in a vehicle in the first place.

Well you got two options here. Ride in a nice comfy robot and be safe...for now. Or choose the path of caution and follow the robot on your hovercycle. Now which target is someone going to shoot at first? A huge robot bristling with weapons? Or the little man on a simple hovercycle?

It depends on why you were in combat with them.
If they were bandits or demons looking for loot or flesh to eat, they'd go for the easy prey every time.
If you're assuming that the mage is the attacker, then you're asking the wrong question since they'll be shooting at you either way.
You should be asking "Would I rather attack an enemy from inside a giant robot armed with missiles and laser turrets, or would I rather be on my simple hovercycle?

And once combat begins how easy would it be for the mage to use his spells to be an even greater menace to the attackers than the robot? Pretty easy when he glues them to the ground so the robot can smear them over the landscape.
That guy on the motorcycle that's riding past your robot.... is he an enemy or just some guy? Well if you were outside of the robot, like on a horse or TW wingboard, you could read his aura and determine how powerfull he was,

Okay, I get you now. Your mage doesn't need a robot vehicle because he always travels with somebody who has one...?

or sense if he was evil, or supernatural, BEFORE he attacked you.

See Aura doesn't indicate alignment.
Maybe you're suggesting casting spells at them for a full 15 seconds while you get off Sense Evil and See Aura?
All before he attacks you?
Even casting one spell means giving him a half a melee start on you. Why not save the PPE and just stand there?
If he's evil, then he'll attack you before a half a melee goes by.
You can tell his power level by the amount of damage you take...

But stuck inside the robot you better hope it's not a dragon in disguise that decides it wants to open the robot up like a can of sardines. See the differance?

Yes.
You think that hostile dragons attack robots on sight, but they ignore guys casting spells at them from wingboards...
Maybe, if he's choosing between the two targets, but that's assuming that your mage is always traveling with a robot pilot.
Which is a strange assumption, to say the least.

Look at the scenario again:
Mage traveling along and runs into a hostile dragon.
He is traveling alone, so there is nobody to cower behind or to draw the dragon's fire.
You really think it's better for him to sit on his horse/wingboard/hovercycle casting See Aura and Sense Evil on the dragon than to be inside a robot vehicle or tank shooting the dragon with lasers or missiles?

IMHO a mage that locks himself away inside a robot or vehicle that blocks his paranormal powers, might as well not have the powers in the first place.

I happen to know martial arts.
If I go the rest of my life never needing to use them, I'll still die a happy man.
I know how to shoot in self defence.
If I go the rest of my life never needing to kill anybody, I'll still die a happy man.
Not everybody learns skills with the intent to constantly use them; many skills are best used in emergency situations.
Like after a angry dragon finally rips open your bot...
My mage will be just as capable as yours, only he'll be in a better postion because the dragon will be very wounded.

Want a robot? Play a robot pilot. Want to cast spell? Play a mage. The two are not inclusive.

Unless you have the brains to open a hatch if you want to cast spells...[/quote]

Was this an upgrade to a jackhammer?

[Zer0 Kay]

I hate to cry "foul" or anything...but I just can't resist.

As I pointed out, many mages can't pilot robots or tanks.

Lets look back on page 78 of this topic shall we??

Hunh, look at that! It looks like Line Walkers and TechnoWizards CAN pilot Robots! Along with anything else...

And some of you wondered what I found so funny all the time!!
I tell ya Killer, you better keep quoting Zero at the bottom of your sig line, it's the only thing in your posts with credibility!

Still don't see what you find so funny.

If he put you in the sig line it wouldn't be credible

[Mech-Viper Prime]

well only teleport:superior has a possible to do it but for 600PPE is it worth it, and as for the robot piloting some can and some cant depending on the OCC

[Zer0 Kay]

Damn this one is getting to long I'm not even gonna bother seperating the parts.

Tell me about it...yesh!!

Gee I hope those dimensional pockets weren't cast outside the vehicle.

Wouldn't matter really.

Hope he's not trying to fly through the woods with fly as an eagle because even at those low speeds he'll become tree paste.

Depends on how close the trees are. But any way you cut it he'll be going faster than a giant robot crashing through the trees. And almost impossible to see with all the foliage that's going to get knocked down and thrashed about.

As far as being a better target when sticking whatever out a window hatch etc. I beleive someone mentioned force field. Have one built into the hatch so when it is opened the forcefield turns on.

Not a bad idea. But I'll tell you the same thing I told your buddy Killer: Want a robot? Play a robot pilot. Want to cast spell? Play a mage. The two are not inclusive.

Sure they are, some mages can take the skill. If they can't then they can take tank and APC if they can't do that they can take automobile which still covers some well armored and armed hover type vehicles (which should be considerd GEVs) that aren't covered by the pilot hovercraft skill, because they don't ride on a cushion of air contained within a skirt. If they can't do that because of restrictive GMs then they could still ride in one with their buddies.

You saying they can't because x is like saying mages don't use towers for the same reason. So from now on I expect all your mages to live in tents. But then again current rules are any vehicle and the difference between any vehicle and a building made of the same material is...a means of conveyance, ruling out that conveyance as the reason the magic doesn't work the buildings should also limit magic. So weather it be MDC metal or SDC stone tower or SDC canvas tent you shouldn't cast magic from inside it. So therefore all your mages must live outside or their blind and why would someone want to blind themselves from unneccessary information in order to be safe? Oh wait we do that when we wear sun glasses, ear plugs, environmental suits, etc.. So tell me how any of your arguements linked to this are credible?

[Zer0 Kay]

well only teleport:superior has a possible to do it but for 600PPE is it worth it, and as for the robot piloting some can and some cant depending on the OCC

But if that can do it then T-port: lesser can t-port a non-living object in.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

5 miles or 8km per level and up to 50 lbs or 22kg can be teleported with teleport lesser.
but the caster must touch the item and the location must be known to him/her.

[Zer0 Kay]

5 miles or 8km per level and up to 50 lbs or 22kg can be teleported with teleport lesser.
but the caster must touch the item and the location must be known to him/her.

I'm sure someone can come up with a powerfull 50lb explosive to toast the inside of a robot.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

true but it can always be used against the players too, and besides depends who they are going against someone can have countermeasures against that type of happening

[Zer0 Kay]

true but it can always be used against the players too, and besides depends who they are going against someone can have countermeasures against that type of happening

How so the only counter measure, minus bad interpretations of the GMG, is forcefields. Can you think of any other?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Anti magic cloud, null sphere, or a sniper

[Zer0 Kay]

Anti magic cloud, null sphere, or a sniper

Anti magic cloud good
Don't remember what null sphere does
How is a sniper going to stop the bomb from detonating? If you say by shooting the mage that brings up armor the mage may be wearing, protections spells that may be on him, weather or not the mage is in cover. Blah, blah, blah.

The first one is still good and probably the second even though I don't reacall what it does.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

null sphere is kinda like a force field i guess would stop at the sphere first once that is gone then the mage could continue.

as for the sniper you never known where a sniper is


but the spells states "that the location of it is being sent to is known to him " so i'm reading it as the mage must have visited the pilot compartment before if not then the spell stops short of the target, and if the vechile is moving, well there is that too

[Mech-Viper Prime]

but then again there is the nega-psychic and psi-nullifier that havent been added into this yet so there are few ways to stop it from happening

[Zer0 Kay]

null sphere is kinda like a force field i guess would stop at the sphere first once that is gone then the mage could continue.

as for the sniper you never known where a sniper is


but the spells states "that the location of it is being sent to is known to him " so i'm reading it as the mage must have visited the pilot compartment before if not then the spell stops short of the target, and if the vechile is moving, well there is that too

That is why the mage in a different armored vehicle wins out. Or in full non-EBA armor or with sixth-sense who throws up an armor of ithan.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

like i always said turn about is fair play, i normally lets the players discovery something like this, then use it again them until they regret they started using this in the first place

so i guess what we all have learned is that the some mage can pilot robots and vechiles and teleport inside of them or teleport a bomb inside a vechile.

from a player point of view its a nice spell to use and from a gm's view point you could mess the players up before they ever know it.

[Temporalmage]

Sure they are, some mages can take the skill. If they can't then they can take tank and APC if they can't do that they can take automobile which still covers some well armored and armed hover type vehicles (which should be considerd GEVs) that aren't covered by the pilot hovercraft skill, because they don't ride on a cushion of air contained within a skirt. If they can't do that because of restrictive GMs then they could still ride in one with their buddies.

"Can" and "would" are two seperate things. While it's true that they "could" ride inside a robot/vehicle..."would" they?? Not in my opinion, and not according to each and every magic OCC discription!!

You saying they can't because x is like saying mages don't use towers for the same reason. So from now on I expect all your mages to live in tents. But then again current rules are any vehicle and the difference between any vehicle and a building made of the same material is...a means of conveyance, ruling out that conveyance as the reason the magic doesn't work the buildings should also limit magic. So weather it be MDC metal or SDC stone tower or SDC canvas tent you shouldn't cast magic from inside it. So therefore all your mages must live outside or their blind and why would someone want to blind themselves from unneccessary information in order to be safe? Oh wait we do that when we wear sun glasses, ear plugs, environmental suits, etc..

The entire 80+ pages of this post I've simply quoted the book rules. Those rules specifically states that magic won't penetrate robots or vehicles. (Also that it's difficult for magic to penetrate power armor.) When there is no book info on some off topic subject, such as magic penetrating buildings, I extrapolate and give my opinion. As I've already given my opinion on mages teleporting into buildings I'm interested in reading yours. Killer and Doom, please feel free to give your own opinions here.
Would a mage be able to teleport into an MDC building?
How about an SDC one?
Would it matter if the building was totally environmental, in your opinion?

So tell me how any of your arguements linked to this are credible?

Simple. I've never backed down from a challange, nor swayed in my opinons. Also I'm man enough to admit if I make a mistake, or say somthing incorrectly. But most importantly, I admit that the rules state that magic can't penetrate robots/vehicles, including teleportation, and that I don't always use that rule in my own games.

[Temporalmage]

Still don't see what you find so funny.

Hmm....methinks your taking this too personally, or not looking at it objectivly....(shrug) Don't sweat it dude. I find that everything is funny if looked at in the right light!

If he put you in the sig line it wouldn't be credible

Only because Killer and I rarely agree on anything!!

[Temporalmage]

well only teleport:superior has a possible to do it but for 600PPE is it worth it, and as for the robot piloting some can and some cant depending on the OCC

But if that can do it then T-port: lesser can t-port a non-living object in.

5 miles or 8km per level and up to 50 lbs or 22kg can be teleported with teleport lesser.
but the caster must touch the item and the location must be known to him/her.

Im sure someone can come up with a powerfull 50lb explosive to toast the inside of a robot.

Oook... So show me one place in any of the books that tells us this is possible please. I've been asking for this since this topic was on page 4. Still waiting....
Oh ya, now I remember why no one has quoted the page that tells us you can teleport into a robot or vehicle.....it's because the rules state that you can't!!!

[Temporalmage]

Hey TM I thought you said you were a Radar tech. minimum detection hight of radar is only limited by where the scan is going. For instance the GPN-22 PAR is capable of guiding a plane all the way down to the tarmak. Most NEXRAD RADAR take reading down to -3 deg. from the horizontal axis, ours is on a 30 foot tower (someone good at trig figure out how far out the beam goes before it hits ground.) Both radar are usefull and they can detect small objects. The PAR was originally designed to track Missiles on test ranges and is capable of tracking birds. The NEXRAD is designed to detect weather and as such is able to detect dust particles if one is dumb enough to reduce the threshold. So the Radar only good over 100' is a falicy.

Nope, I USED to be a J-52 jet engine mechanic, for the A-6 bomber. Fortunatly for me most of what you said is way above my head. The reason I say I'm fortunate is cause if Palladium used all that crap in thier games, I'd never play em!!

[Temporalmage]

Again, show me any reason why buildings would be any different from vehicles when it comes to magic getting inside.

First let me explain my opinion on somthing... When I see the word "Vehicle", I always think of MDC environmentaly sealed vehicles. I don't think it makes any sense to group hovercycles or wingboards in this discussion when talking about weither or not magic will penetrate em. Also I don't think of an SDC car or truck in the same fasion either. Just my opinion and how I see it.
Now as for buildings, that's an easy one. I'm a carpenter, I build houses for a living. With our modern construction methods no home is totally environmental. In fact there are spaces in the walls, cealings, and even floors that are put there on purpose for various reasons. A solid building isn't really....solid. It may be structurally sound, archateturally engineered to withstand absurd stresses such as 50 foot of snow on the roof, or hurricane force winds. But that don't make it the same as a hunk of tank armor. Now in the world of Rifts most houses and buildings wouldn't even be built as well, or as modern, as what is being built today. After all most places that are described in the books have lower tech and sub-standard industrys. Now there would be the uber-rare building that was as tough, solid, and environmentally sealed, as a robot or tank. For example Chi-Town. (That is if you view it as a single structure) These are just a few simple reasons why I don't veiw buildings and robots or vehicles the same way when it comes to magic, or anything else really.

Look at the scenario again:
Mage traveling along and runs into a hostile dragon.
He is traveling alone, so there is nobody to cower behind or to draw the dragon's fire.
You really think it's better for him to sit on his horse/wingboard/hovercycle casting See Aura and Sense Evil on the dragon than to be inside a robot vehicle or tank shooting the dragon with lasers or missiles?

It all depends on the situation. If the mage has noticed the dragon first, (which would only happen if the mage was alone being relitivly quiet) the mage would have a chance to escape the dragons notice, and not even have to fight. A robot is going to be noticed quite some distance away.

I happen to know martial arts.
If I go the rest of my life never needing to use them, I'll still die a happy man.
I know how to shoot in self defence.
If I go the rest of my life never needing to kill anybody, I'll still die a happy man.
Not everybody learns skills with the intent to constantly use them; many skills are best used in emergency situations.

So basicly your saying that you personally took martial arts as a secondary skill. It's a hobby of yours, and does not reflect on what you do for a living. But a mage on the other hand has chosen an OCC. As in Ocupation! That's what he does to survive. So while blocking off thier powers may seem like a good idea to you, I just don't see someone doing such a thing.

[PigLickJF]

So basicly your saying that you personally took martial arts as a secondary skill. It's a hobby of yours, and does not reflect on what you do for a living. But a mage on the other hand has chosen an OCC. As in Ocupation! That's what he does to survive. So while blocking off thier powers may seem like a good idea to you, I just don't see someone doing such a thing.

The point however, is that you should not base a rule off of what people might *tend* to do, when there is no set, universal reason why they can't do it.

Just because someone chooses to study magic as their "primary occupation," have devoted their lives to the study of it, etc, doesn't mean they'll never get into a vehicle or situation which blocks its effectiveness. Since there's no good reason for it not to feasibly come up, it would be ridiculous to make a rule based off of the fact that it will never happen. So you can't use the justification of "You can't tport into an MDC vehicle because a mage would never get into one anyway," which is, I believe, where this whole portion of the argument started.

PigLick

[Killer Cyborg]

Again, show me any reason why buildings would be any different from vehicles when it comes to magic getting inside.

First let me explain my opinion on somthing... When I see the word "Vehicle", I always think of MDC environmentaly sealed vehicles.

And here is where your random opinion is poisoning your argument.
-The book never says "MDC" vehicles. Could it refer solely to MDC vehicles? Unlikely. There are still SDC cars and other vehicles around; every vagabond starts with one, for example. If they meant MDC, then they would have said "The skin of MDC Robots and Vehicles" or "The MDC skin of robots and vehicles".
-And they definitely don't mean "environmentally sealed". We've established that several times by pointing out that the books say that even an open window isn't enough to cast spells out of a vehicle; you have to stick at least halfway out of the vehicle.

I don't think it makes any sense to group hovercycles or wingboards in this discussion when talking about weither or not magic will penetrate em.

Agreed.
I'd allow a mage to teleport into a motorcycle or a wingboard, though. If he want's instant death that's his problem...

Now as for buildings, that's an easy one. I'm a carpenter, I build houses for a living. With our modern construction methods no home is totally environmental. In fact there are spaces in the walls, cealings, and even floors that are put there on purpose for various reasons. A solid building isn't really....solid. It may be structurally sound, archateturally engineered to withstand absurd stresses such as 50 foot of snow on the roof, or hurricane force winds.

As I pointed out yet again, environmental sealing is demonstratably NOT a factor in the problem of magic penetrating vehicles.
It has no more to do with the topic than the -10 rule does.

But that don't make it the same as a hunk of tank armor.

True.
Of course, a house IS generally more sturdy than many SDC vehicles, which can keep magic out effectively.

Now in the world of Rifts most houses and buildings wouldn't even be built as well, or as modern, as what is being built today.

I disagree. MDC materials are a LOT more common, for one thing.
Also, the tech levels vary... as do construction techniques. A medieval house made out of stone might well be stronger than a modern house built cheaply.

After all most places that are described in the books have lower tech and sub-standard industrys. Now there would be the uber-rare building that was as tough, solid, and environmentally sealed, as a robot or tank. For example Chi-Town. (That is if you view it as a single structure) These are just a few simple reasons why I don't veiw buildings and robots or vehicles the same way when it comes to magic, or anything else really.

As I pointed out, environmental sealing has nothing to do with anything. So it's irrelevant.

Look at the scenario again:
Mage traveling along and runs into a hostile dragon.
He is traveling alone, so there is nobody to cower behind or to draw the dragon's fire.
You really think it's better for him to sit on his horse/wingboard/hovercycle casting See Aura and Sense Evil on the dragon than to be inside a robot vehicle or tank shooting the dragon with lasers or missiles?

It all depends on the situation. If the mage has noticed the dragon first, (which would only happen if the mage was alone being relitivly quiet) the mage would have a chance to escape the dragons notice, and not even have to fight. A robot is going to be noticed quite some distance away.

Yes. If he was flying his hover cycle in stealth mode, then he would be silent enough to avoid a dragon's notice.
Of course, there's no such thing as Stealth Mode...

I happen to know martial arts.
If I go the rest of my life never needing to use them, I'll still die a happy man.
I know how to shoot in self defence.
If I go the rest of my life never needing to kill anybody, I'll still die a happy man.
Not everybody learns skills with the intent to constantly use them; many skills are best used in emergency situations.

So basicly your saying that you personally took martial arts as a secondary skill. It's a hobby of yours, and does not reflect on what you do for a living. But a mage on the other hand has chosen an OCC. As in Ocupation! That's what he does to survive. So while blocking off thier powers may seem like a good idea to you, I just don't see someone doing such a thing.

I'll have to admit that my martial arts skills are certainly a secondary skill.
But my point stands. There are plenty of proffessionals who have honed their skills only because those skills are useful in an emergency.
EMTs, Firemen, soldiers, etc. etc.
People are more than what they do for a living.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

[/quote]

Oook... So show me one place in any of the books that tells us this is possible please. I've been asking for this since this topic was on page 4. Still waiting....
Oh ya, now I remember why no one has quoted the page that tells us you can teleport into a robot or vehicle.....it's because the rules state that you can't!!! [/quote]

i just stated the what the spells could do, personally i think mages who hide in power armor are lacking something, but to answer your question

20% more of the ppe cost for armor and a roll on a secondary table with 19% of it going off without a hitch. As for power armor /vechiles/gaint robot see above for the same thing and yes Magic cant penetrate the skin of any of the said three, any spell cast inside will only affect the people inside and the internal systems of it, and outside of the said three will only affect the outside (book of Magic page 21)